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America Strikes Again
BillieTheBot
Posts: 8,721 Bot
The war in Afghanistan is going well, and the Al Qaeda and Taleban are being destroyed. Which is very good, they need to all die slowly and painfully.
But the news now is that the US have bombed the canadian soldiers, killing four of them. Why do the Yanks keep trying to make the fight fair by killing their own side?
But the news now is that the US have bombed the canadian soldiers, killing four of them. Why do the Yanks keep trying to make the fight fair by killing their own side?
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
0
Comments
Not sure what you want as an answer here mate.
Mistakes happen.
I already commented on this, but for fear or awaking the giants I deleted the thread because of my anti-american attitude.
http://www.canada.com/national/features/friendlyfire/story.html?id={9CD19156-BC0D-40F4-8E1B-894340FA1F0D}
Go there for the full story.
I believe the pilot acted with extreme negligence, and should be sentenced for murder. Which it was, nobody "accidentally" disobeys orders, think that surface to surface fire can harm them, and nobody accidentally ignores the rangefinder, telling them that the thermal, reflective strips our troops wear on their helmets means they are friendlies.
The fact that he didn't quite know how many bombs he did drop is quite worrying. "errr, I dunno, but I think it might have been 2, oh and that cow...i thought it was an Afghan interceptor jet."
You think telling a mother her son has died as a result of an accident is worse than telling a mother her son has died as a result of enemy fire do you?
Have you even been in an F16 flying over Afghanistan while tracer fire is below you Whowhere? Have you see video footage of tracer fire? It pings all over the fuckin place, whos to say that the pilot didnt see rounds richocheting and going vertical? Again, we werent there so we dont know what he saw.
Friendly area? Well first of all, the pilot wasnt aware that this was a friendly area. Secondly, this is Afghanistan, there are NO totally pacified areas. They are fighting a guerilla war. You reckon the Royal Marines go out partying in the nice and safe town of Kabul on friday nights? Or do they realise that there could be Taliban/Al-Queda amongst the people? Its not as clear cut as that.
Against direct orders? No again...He was not ordered not to fire...He was ordered to mark the target. I didnt see any reference to an order specifically saying not to engage. Im also pretty certain that there are proceedures that govern this kind of thing. I would assume that the pilots are allowed to use their own initiative if they believe they are under direct threat. Maybe Thanatos can shed some light on this.
Tried and sentanced as a murderer? <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
We hear about US friendly fire incidents more than any other because they are the #1 military in the entire world...Before you start on one of your 'our forces are better' tirades, I dont mean in ability....The US forces are in something like 150 countries and outnumber most other countries armies by a long way. We also get to hear about their accidents because they have a free press and are relatively open about what goes on.
Until you have been shot at personally, I suggest you stop pontificating as if you were an expert, boy.
Tried for murder? You dont know all the circumstances, boy.
The US commanders were informed that Candian live fire exercise were taking place at that place, at that time. Doesn't take a genius to realise that they were only shooting at targets and not the US fighter jet flying overhead.
Maybe the pilot didn't know, in that case there was a SERIOUS lack of communication between the different aspects of the war machine. The fact that the pilot wasn't told "disengage, they are friendlies performing live fire exercises" or something similar shows a worrying break down in communication somewhere.
However, maybe the pilot wasn't totally responsible, but someone was. And whoever it was murdered 4 soldiers and wounded 8 more. you cannot deny that, because somewhere down the line the Canadians will demand justice. Wouldn't you?
Trained pilots know at all times how much munitions they are carrying and how much they expend.
Why shouldn't someone be tried for murder? 4 soldiers were killed, 8 were wounded. Maybe manslaughter and not murder, but there is no denying that someone should be held responsible.
and trained pilots are no matter how well trained, vulnerable to psychological reactions which take the place of reason. Forgetting something like how much munition was expended is patently irrelevant. But you wouldnt know as youve never served in a forward area.
Manslaughter / murder - i disagree totally - again, we havent all the facts of the matter and there is no evidence he acted with malice
Facts? FACTS? FACTS?
Don't confuse 'is lil' pinhead: 'is mind is made up!
Was never pilot/aviator of fighter aircraft > cannot comment upon rules of engagement concerning same (at least not from an intelligent and informed perspective.)
0311/11b rules: When in a hot zone, when you receive incoming fire, you END! the fucking threat.
That DAMNED simple.
If you don't like the rules, don't apply for the job. If you want to comment/judge/criticise (bitch/bleat) anyway?
Fuck off and die.
(Directed to the inane element present, not all concerned)
LMFAO!
heh thats the equivalent of asking a cop how many rounds he fired in a shootout lol
No it fucking well isn't.
All pilots, British ones anyway are expected to know EVERYTHING about their aircraft. At the end of a mission they are expected to know hw much fuel they consumed, and how much ammunition they expended so the logistics personnel can resupply their aircraft quickly. it doesn't take a genius to work out how many bombs he should have, considering the F-16 can only carry 4 anyway. Or does simple mathmatics cause you too much trouble? "Hmmm, I left with 4 bombs, I dropped erm...oh dang, i forgot".
Likwise, police officers are also expected to account for every round they have fired. The fact that they are given a magazine holding 30 rounds, using simple subtraction they can tell their senior officers how many they have fired.
As for Thanato's rules of engament, are you an idiot or do you choose to wilfully ignore everything I write that might contradict your rhetoric?
Did you miss the bit where I wrote about "break down of communication"? Someone, somewhere decided not to tell the air traffic controllers, or the pilots that Canadian troops would be conducting life fire exercises, even though the Canadian forces went throuh the proper channels. This doesn't sound like a case of the left foot not knowing what the right foot is doing, more like a case of the left foot not knowing if the right foot even exists.
I don't know about your rules of engagment, but engaging an enemy that doesnt exist sounds like carelessness to me.
And whatever you say about it not being a totally safe area, you don't just sneak a platoon of armed taliban troops into a US controlled area, especially if the last time anyone saw them they were hiding in the mountains.
It shows the kind of stresses upon a person when in a combat zone, and no that's just a guess, not an informed perspective.
What I would hate to see is the pilot punished for reacting on his instinct and make a sacrificial example of. It is enough that he has erred and lives were lost; it will be his burden to bear. Let's not punish him more for it.
I sympathise with the families of those lost, and pray that some comfort is afforded them in the knowledge that their sons/husbands or fathers were there because they believed it to be right.
We all grieve for the lost Canadian warriors whos base is in Edmanton...these brave young men were there sholder to sholder with US and most certainly did not deserve to die for it.
Let it be a reminder to all here that 'communications is the key to command' and likewise one of the reasons that many governments want to bring the net under control...because right now we share information on an instant.
<img src="http://www.boortz.com/gas_arm_leg.jpg" alt="image">
As mature a statement as I have read here, in a while.
My respect, Sir.
Noone was blaming the pilot, least of all me. But someone in the US Military hierarchy fucked up royally, and four people have been killed because of it. The military are brave and noble men, noone is denying that, but the Us in particular seems to friendly fire an awful lot. My question is simple: why can the US Military not stop making these stupid mistakes?
Something to do with US military counting bombs and the stupidty if Devil Man suggesting that if you leave with x amount of ordnance and return with x-y that you wouldn't have an idea of how much you had expended...unless of course the US Air Farce/US Navy has a habit or losing bombs <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Anway I have this new PC with Windows XP and it seem unable to keep a connection for very long...time I posted in the 'net' forum I think.
[ 21-04-2002: Message edited by: Man Of Kent ]
To blame a govenment, what can you justify as punishment in such a situation, thinking about it logically do you except them to pay out to the victims families? No one member here is primarily responsible and no doubt many a family will now take this up in legal matters by attempting to sue the amercian govenment and in such a case the money from the trial comes out of americain public hands and so its the people who suffer.
Again like mentioned, this is a tragic accident and no-one is responisble. War isn't a pretty thing, accidents do happen and the main thing that can be done is learning from these accidents.
From what I gathered from the report and yes I accept that not all the evidence is there. Is that the pilot recieved fire, was told to lock target (fair enough), recieved fire again and decided to retaliate... now yes this was tracer fire and a combat exercise but he wasn't informed of this.
Its a very sad situation.
If you want to understand/empathize with the F-16 pilot's state of mind, next time you are under fire, FA type, repetitive, tell me how you felt.
Those trained for combat are conditioned to NOT tuck tail and hide from confrontation; it is pounded into them to retaliate with overwhelming force until the threat signature is completely destroyed. COMPLETELY DESTROYED!
Instincts are modified. Mental state is modified. Emotions are modified.
Again... I cannot speak from experience concerning rules of engagement for pilots/aviators. However... as 0311 ground grunt, when you take incoming, you erase the threat from the face of the earth, as quickly and succinctly as you are able.
Again, this is your perspective gained from EXACTLY HOW MUCH COMBAT EXPERIENCE? Ever been in a hostile country, at night, and guarding a perimeter? I have. The wire got probed and crashed CONTINUALLY. "US controlled" does NOT mean "impervious to attack from hostile forces"... except in your wetdreams. You continue to demonstrate most definitively your delusional perspective toward combat and combat arena.
Ignoring the possibility/probabilty/signature of insurgent/invasive activity is definitive DERELICTION OF DUTY, and within a war zone, punishable by firing squad. How does THAT reality play in your wetdream rhetoric???
Continental United States can reasonably be considered a "US controlled" AO, and yet the WTC was attacked, successfully, was it not???
What makes you think that ANY area of Afghanistan would be more secure than the United States proper???
Does your stupidity know no boundaries?
You are simply pathetic. Better you should spend your wanking moments discussing drugs and your tristing than to engage in conversation concerning concepts and realities for you are TOTALLY barren of comprehension...
btw ~ fyi ~ there are some within this very forum who have proven very adept at covert insertion to enemy held territory, and totally altering focus and attention of the enemy...
Comprende???
[ 21-04-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
Yes, but when the American commanders, were told repeatedly that Canadian forces were training, you'd think the rules of engagent would change slightly...?
A place under your control doesn't make it impervious, however you'd have to have pretty shitty intelligence to allow a platoon or battlion sized force to simply walk in to the area and start shooting stuff, without ground troops being sent to investigate.
Or did that small concept not occur to you?
Maybe the fact that the Canadians were using tracers so they could be seen and were shooting at ground targets..maybe that proved too much for the poor stressed out pilot?
You say I am ignorant of what goes on? I'm not ignorant and stupid enough to ignore what I can see with my own eyes, something you fail to do.
You cannot accept that people in the armed forces can fuck up, and often do. you think they are so great that everything do is God's bidding.
As for people trained in insertion techniques..again I doubt they could sneak a platoon or even a squad of more than 20 men into enemy territory.
you say I am pathetic, you are the pathetic one, with your high held beliefs that everything you and other soldiers have ever done is better than that of a civilian. I have my eyes wide open, I can see what is going on around me. I can accept that the armed forces can make mistakes. You don't seem to be able to do that.
You seem to think I have no knowledge of all things combat. I have repeatedly, and easily destryoed your arguments with simple facts. I don't need first hand experience to be able to prove you wrong. You try and plug the holes in your argument with fancy language and turns of phrase. You continue with your crap despite being proven wrong time and time again by everyone here.
I can admit to making mistakes or getting things wrong. You couldn't admit to being wrong if somebody shoved the gospel truth in your face.
Thanatos, this should never have happened. The pilot made a terrible mistake. Don't try and suggest that this is an inevitable part of modern-day warfare. This was not what he was trained for. He made a mistake.
Whowhere, we don't know any of the facts so speculation is pointless. Whilst I agree that this should never have happened, and the US messed up big-time, that is no reason to go off on one.
Group hug <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
I'd be going on like this if any country did it, not just the USA. And I'm sure Thanatos would be arguing with me until he was blue in the face because I bad mouthed the military.
There's a whole bag of Sssshh with your name on it. <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Fne, i'll shut up if he shuts up.
Lol It reminds me of Zippy and Bungle from Rainbow <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> <IMG SRC="tongue.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> <IMG SRC="tongue.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">