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Immigrants - Good or Bad?

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Surely you could argue that a geniuine refugee may try to flee the country furthest away so they have less chance of being sent back, and to make a decision to go to the place where they will be treated fairly well.

    You can not blame anyone for trying to get the best deal possible.

    But I agree about people begging with their children, I have also seen this in London. This is wrong and not necessary, whilst benefits are not a lot, they are sufficent to live off. However, the majority of refugees do not beg, as the majority of British people do not beg (but a small number do).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by rainbow bright:
    <STRONG>BALD DOG I APOLOGISE TO YOU,
    ive just re-read your posts and you werent racist in any of them.
    we do live in a rich country, the majority of our taxes go on things like nuclear weapons and Tony Blairs paypacket and the royal family etc. much more money needs to be spent on things like the NHS and decent housing for people .</STRONG>

    Thing 1, I am a Conservative, but in no way am I a racist or fascist. You have to distinguish between right-wing and extremist.

    Thing 2, if you look at the budget, you will find that the vast majority of it is spent on social security and the NHS. Compared to that, defence recieves very little and the Royal family even less. As Balddog pointed out, what we spend on the Royals (transport, official visits, etc.) would still have to be spent on a President if we were a republic.

    On immigrants I think Balddog and NiceK have made some useful points. Economic migrants are good, but bogus asylum seekers waste resources. Yes we should take in asylum seekers, but only those whose lives would be in jeopardy if they stayed at home. Anyone coming just to sponge should be deported immediately. I think we should have more staff in Customs and immigration to ensure these pepole are dealt with as quickly as possible. The ones that do enter should be dispersed as widely as possible to avoid the creation of ghettos and avoid the Oldham/Bradford/Glasgow problems of last year.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Captain Slog:
    <STRONG>Economic migrants are good, but bogus asylum seekers waste resources. Yes we should take in asylum seekers, but only those whose lives would be in jeopardy if they stayed at home. Anyone coming just to sponge should be deported immediately.</STRONG>
    What are 'bogus asylum seekers' if not economic migrants?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What are 'bogus asylum seekers' if not economic migrants?
    Hit the nail on the head there...

    Our rules on economic immigration are far to tight, people who illegally enter Britain are mistakenly called illegal asylum seekers when surely they are economic migrants who are not allowed permits. The simple answer is to dish out work permits to them!

    The point about some immigramts being criminals is a bit silly. Are you going to character screen everyone? Criminals exist in any community, that can't be helped.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    <STRONG>
    What are 'bogus asylum seekers' if not economic migrants?</STRONG>

    If they claim asylum then they should be deported..These people are the ones giving the asylum seekers a bad name and thats why they get such a hard time in this country.
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>Our rules on economic immigration are far to tight, people who illegally enter Britain are mistakenly called illegal asylum seekers when surely they are economic migrants who are not allowed permits. The simple answer is to dish out work permits to them!</STRONG>

    Are they too tight? Im not up on the immigration proceedures but we have millions of Indians/Pakistanis/West Africans who had no trouble legally entering the country to work...thats actually a genuine question btw..I dont know if its hard for people to enter this country.

    Sorry but they arent 'mistakenly' called illegal asylum seekers..There is a large group of illegal immigrants who claim asylum on entry even though they dont have a leg to stand on. If they claim asylum in order to get a foot in the door so to speak then they are out of order.

    Anyone who endangers lives in order to gain entry to the country should be charged or deported. Those animals who threatened their own childrens lives in order to get in need to be dealt with.

    We need to reform the whole asylum process and make it available abroad. Its absolutely stupid that people have to make it here before they can claim asylum.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I will have to find out more but I kinda assume that so many people bogusly claim asylum because it is so difficult to get in by other means......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>If they claim asylum then they should be deported..These people are the ones giving the asylum seekers a bad name and thats why they get such a hard time in this country</STRONG>
    That's a massive generalisation and I don't think it's true.

    You're suggesting that people who see the opportunity of a better life in the UK, pack up home and travel around the world, and then sit on their arses all day scrounging off the state.

    No, I think those are the people that try to make a living by working all the hours God sends in shitty sweatshops for £2.50 an hour.

    Either way, there's no quick solution, but I somewhat agree with Toadborg about introducing some kind of controlled, but more flexible, immigration policy like those in Australia, or even the US.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    like those in Australia
    I thought the Aussies had a really harsh immigration control system. Wasn't it only recently that they started letting non-white people in?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    <STRONG>
    That's a massive generalisation and I don't think it's true.

    You're suggesting that people who see the opportunity of a better life in the UK, pack up home and travel around the world, and then sit on their arses all day scrounging off the state.</STRONG>

    No its not a generalisation.

    Those economic migrants who abuse our asylum system are the ones causing the problem...You say these are the kind of people who will work all the hours god sends...How exactly are they supposed to work if they claim asylum? They are not allowed to work..

    If you can show me that asylum seekers are allowed to work and dont sit on their arses all day then ill eat my words.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    <STRONG>
    No, I think those are the people that try to make a living by working all the hours God sends in shitty sweatshops for £2.50 an hour.

    Either way, there's no quick solution, but I somewhat agree with Toadborg about introducing some kind of controlled, but more flexible, immigration policy like those in Australia, or even the US.</STRONG>

    I think you were a bit confused - whether or not they are prepared to work hard is not an issue here. No matter what they have in mind, they are still illegal immigrants. And therefore, illegal immigrants should either:

    1. stay if they have geniune reason for their safety in their own countries

    2. be deported.

    If they are allowed to stay just because they will work hard, what about those coming through the legal procedures, why do they need so much paperwork (visa, permit, etc) if they could just show they are 'hard working'? They are the proper economic migrants. Isn't it unfair to them?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by NiceK:
    <STRONG>I think you were a bit confused - whether or not they are prepared to work hard is not an issue here. No matter what they have in mind, they are still illegal immigrants. And therefore, illegal immigrants should either:

    1. stay if they have geniune reason for their safety in their own countries

    2. be deported.

    If they are allowed to stay just because they will work hard, what about those coming through the legal procedures, why do they need so much paperwork (visa, permit, etc) if they could just show they are 'hard working'? They are the proper economic migrants. Isn't it unfair to them?</STRONG>
    Not quite sure what you mean.

    I was just saying that it's not just the illegal immigrants (economic migrants) that are the problem. Just because asylum seekers are fleeing persecution doesn't mean they don't come over here and commit crime.

    I also said that the whole immigration system needs opening up. Confused?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    <STRONG>
    Not quite sure what you mean.

    I was just saying that it's not just the illegal immigrants (economic migrants) that are the problem. Just because asylum seekers are fleeing persecution doesn't mean they don't come over here and commit crime.

    Confused?</STRONG>

    Yes...
    First of all, let me make this clear. Economic migrants can be legal or illegal. What I mentioned before, is to welcome the legal economic migrants. The kind of people you were pointing out is the illegal ones, even though their aim is the same - to get a better life. In my view, they should not be allowed to stay, due to the fact that they have broken the law - entering the country illegally. If they want a better life, fair enough, go back to their country and do the proper application.

    As to the point of crime, not all of them would commit a crime but it is true that they are more likely to create social tension. Just read the news of whats happening about the refugee community. But the whole point is, they should be sent back as they entered here illegally without a convincing reason. True the immigration system need to be reformed, but simply because it is hard to comply the law doesn't give them the right reason not to be sent back.

    [ 18-04-2002: Message edited by: NiceK ]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    <STRONG>

    Either way, there's no quick solution, but I somewhat agree with Toadborg about introducing some kind of controlled, but more flexible, immigration policy like those in Australia, or even the US.</STRONG>
    US has an "immigration policy"?
    During the last presidential election, more than one million illegal aliens voted in Kalifornia, alone. They collect welfare. They collect medical benefits. They collect the socialistic rewards of a system they have never paid into.
    Us has an "immigration policy"? General amnesty is more accurate...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Thanatos...AGAIN:
    <STRONG>US has an "immigration policy"?
    During the last presidential election, more than one million illegal aliens voted in Kalifornia</STRONG>(sic)<STRONG>, alone. They collect welfare. They collect medical benefits. They collect the socialistic rewards of a system they have never paid into.
    Us has an "immigration policy"? General amnesty is more accurate...</STRONG>
    I love the way you Americans refer to foreigners as 'aliens'.

    And do you really want me to inform you about your own immigration policy? Yes, you do have one.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    even though their aim is the same - to get a better life. In my view, they should not be allowed to stay, due to the fact that they have broken the law
    so your objection is basically that they have broken a law threefore they are bad people, even if that law is itself wrong...

    I like to work to the system that there are huge flaws in the legal system and that I will base my morals and hence my perspective in these discussions on what I believe is right not what the current govt believes is right......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>so your objection is basically that they have broken a law threefore they are bad people, even if that law is itself wrong...

    I like to work to the system that there are huge flaws in the legal system and that I will base my morals and hence my perspective in these discussions on what I believe is right not what the current govt believes is right......</STRONG>

    I never said they are 'bad', but simply because you think the law is 'wrong' is not a valid reason. If you have this type of thinking, why do we need the whole legal system, as everyone can just do whatever they believe is right.

    As to your second point, if your 'model' is not based on anything in reality, I doubt it is of any worth to talk about.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You explicitly asked the question "Immigrants- Good or Bad?" I am basing my answers and opinions on what I believe should be not on what is. If we are to take the view that by breaking our immigration laws they are bad then so be it but I believe that is these laws that are wrong and have said so.......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont think its fair to deport those who illegally enter the country at the moment. Unfortunately our asylum system is a joke. Ive outlined earlier what I think should be done...If that system was in place then any illegal immigrants should be deported.

    Under the current system. I think that anyone who endangers other peoples lives while entering this country illegally should be deported. Those that cut the brake cables of trains and threaten to hurl their children off ferries...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>

    Under the current system. I think that anyone who endangers other peoples lives while entering this country illegally should be deported. Those that cut the brake cables of trains and threaten to hurl their children off ferries...</STRONG>
    fair enough but it makes you think, how did these people get so desperate?
    <IMG SRC="frown.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>
    fair enough but it makes you think, how did these people get so desperate?
    <IMG SRC="frown.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"></STRONG>

    Yes it makes me wonder..I also wonder about child rapists and murderers.

    Im not a parent but im pretty damn sure that theres nothing on this earth that would make me murder my own child in order to give myself a better life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    <STRONG>
    What are 'bogus asylum seekers' if not economic migrants?</STRONG>

    The fact is that bogus asylum seekers lie and cheat to get into the country. I don't have a problem with people who apply for entry through the proper channels, but people who enter the country dishonestly (falsely claiming asylum) should be deported.
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