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Pubs who knowingly serve people who are underage.

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I'm not talking about 17 year olds here either.

There's a local pub of mine which has suddenly turned into the local youth club. I don't go in there for that reason, but people have told me how much of a problem it is.
Thing is, the people behind the bar serve 14 and 15 year olds knowing full well that they are obviously under age.
This annoys the hell out of me mainly because i think it is wrong and they are blaitantly breaking the law.

Something needs to be done about it because i don't think it's right or fair on the locals who have drank there for years and years.
I was just wondering if anyone knows where i'd be able to make a complaint about it as i don't have a clue where to start.

I know this may seem petty and like i'm being a bit of a bitch but it's something that i really believe is wrong.

Anyone care to point me in the right direction? :)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A shop round by us does that.

    They know im 16 but still serve me for booze :)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Pubs who knowingly serve people who are underage.

    I do not know much about licencing law, but the registered owners of pub are breaking that law for which they could, in theory, be prosecuted. You could go to the police and inform them of the situation or write to them, and they should investigate the matter further.

    The police only have limited resources, hence why they do not enforce every law. Accordingly, they rely on the general public to inform them of incidents, which they could thereafter investigate.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Phone the police straight away, especially when you know they are serving under aged drinkers. They will do a raid and the landlord will be well in the shit.
    They could even do a watch on the pub and actually send some
    14/15 yr olds in the pub to see if they get served and when they do the landlord will be pounced on.
    Youre not being petty at all, these are teenagers and they should not be getting served alcohol. Im of the same opinion as yourself like if they were 17 yr olds its slightly different.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BeckyBoo
    if they were 17 yr olds its slightly different.

    But they would still be underage and thus breaking the law! Should there be a hierarchy of alledged offenders, from those who definitely should not do it and those who should not really do it, to those who can do it without any problems? No, of course not. It is one law and one law only. Justice would not be achieved if anyone was allowed to drink underage, regardless of whether they are one day away from turning 18 or 14-years-old. Naturally, this relies on the enforcement of such laws by the police, who rely heavily on public support and assistance.

    It is important to remain realistic, and to realise that many under 18s do drink in pubs and clubs. The key is to obviously find effective ways to reduce this abuse, through deterrences, such as effective policing and stricter punishments should pubs and clubs be found guilty of serving underage people. An alternative would be to reduce the legal age. But since the law generally reflects morality, i.e. the majority of people would consider 18 to be the point at which people can maturely comprehend pontential consequences of overindulgence, it will probably not happen unless there is a shift in morality. Furthermore, under 18s are not really considered mature enough to understand such things, so the law acts as a safeguard against abuse and the likely consequences. If it was deemed that, say, 17 year olds were appropriately mature, then the law might change to reflect this shift. But this won't happen for some time - if at all.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Anyway, if you decide to, you can go to your local police station and explain what you know. They will probably ask you to write a statement. Alternatively, you could merely write a letter expressing your concern, and send it to them. They should then contact you, and probably ask you to go to the police station or to visit you at a mutually convenient time.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Mobily's Ghost
    But they would still be underage and thus breaking the law! .
    I appreciate that but millions of 17 yr olds go out drinking, but when its 14/15 yr olds thats a different thing.
    The thing is if i were a barmaid I wouldnt be able to tell who was underage, look at most 16/17 yr olds they would almost certainly pass as over 18 so thats why I was not that bothered about 17 yr olds. But yes they are getting served alcohol underage and its an offence.
    I just think 14 yr olds getting served alcohol is more serious than a 17 yr old :)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You can telephone the police anonomously, you can call from a phonebox and not give your name or address. If they ask for your name (which they will) you say im not prepared to give my name for fear of any consequenses, thats if you dont want to give your name. They most probably will investigate it and make it a matter of urgency. No local police want 14/15 yr olds drinking in their town/village whatever.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BeckyBoo
    I appreciate that but millions of 17 yr olds go out drinking, but when its 14/15 yr olds thats a different thing.
    The thing is if i were a barmaid I wouldnt be able to tell who was underage, look at most 16/17 yr olds they would almost certainly pass as over 18 so thats why I was not that bothered about 17 yr olds. But yes they are getting served alcohol underage and its an offence.
    I just think 14 yr olds getting served alcohol is more serious than a 17 yr old :)

    I agree that those who drink at, for instance, 14 and 15 years of age are potentially more serious than those say 17, despite them all allegedly breaking the law. That is why it is very important to find an effective deterrence, to deter the younger drinkers and the older drinkers. If "millions" of 17-year-olds drink illegally (they obviously do - and I used to), then clearly current measures, such as police enforcement and a lack of prosecutions, to prevent them from breaking this law are ineffective. Why? Is it to do with a lack of police resources to investigate so many crimes? Partially, yes. Are such alleged crimes considered important? No, not really. Can 17-year-olds comprehend the potential consequences of their actions more so than, say, a 14-year-old? Probably. So it is important to find an effective deterrent that would substantially reduce the amount of alleged offenders, from the youngest to the oldest. But this might not be great police enforcement, because they do not have infinite resources so therefore must make important - and difficult - decisions as to which cases should receive their attention and which laws should be enforced. Thus it could be argued that the police are relatively inefficient.

    Sorry, I study criminal justice and it is the topic about which I am most passionate (helping people by finding means by which to increase justice). :)

    Shut up James. :D
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BeckyBoo
    I appreciate that but millions of 17 yr olds go out drinking, but when its 14/15 yr olds thats a different thing.
    The thing is if i were a barmaid I wouldnt be able to tell who was underage, look at most 16/17 yr olds they would almost certainly pass as over 18 so thats why I was not that bothered about 17 yr olds. But yes they are getting served alcohol underage and its an offence.
    I just think 14 yr olds getting served alcohol is more serious than a 17 yr old :)

    I agree totally. I'm 17 and have only just in the past say 4-5 months started going out drinking. I know i am underage but the point i'm making is 17 year olds are a lot more mature than 14 year olds, no 14 year old i know looks like they are 18. I wouldn't even dream of trying to get served in a pub when i was 14/15. I really don't agree with the bar tenders serving obviously underage kids. Most people at the age of 14 don't know their limits and can cause serious harm to themselves by drinking more than they can handle.
    It also ruins your night out when you walk into a bar full of kiddies running and falling about because they've had far too much to drink.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by One of the Nobodies
    I agree totally. I'm 17 and have only just in the past say 4-5 months started going out drinking. I know i am underage but the point i'm making is 17 year olds are a lot more mature than 14 year olds, no 14 year old i know looks like they are 18. I would even dream of trying to get served in a pub when i was 14/15. I really don't agree with the bar tenders serving obviously underage kids. Most people at the age of 14 don't know their limits and can cause serious harm to themselves by drinking more than they can handle.
    It also ruins your night out when you walk into a bar full of kiddies running and falling about because they've had far too much to drink.

    So perhaps it would be wise to place a much bigger emphasis on the pub owners to ensure that they ask EVERYONE looking under 18 for ID. But many 17-year-olds look over 18, yet are still drinking illegally. So what do they do? Perhaps they should ask everyone who looks under 20 or 21 for ID? Would that be an effective deterrent? Would it be just? Yes, it would result in those 18 or over being asked, but it would almost certainly result in far fewer underage drinkers, especially if there were strict - and enforceable - penalties should pubs be in breach of serving underage customers. But the end should never justify the means, for justice will not be achieved if the end result was achieved inappropriately and unjustly. Naturally, this topic also questions parental responsibility, especially for those 14 and 15, which could also be an effective deterrent. Perhaps we should look at what America does, because exceptionally few people drink underage in pubs/bars and clubs over there.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Mobily's Ghost
    So perhaps it would be wise to place a much bigger emphasis on the pub owners to ensure that they ask EVERYONE looking under 18 for ID. But many 17-year-olds look over 18, yet are still drinking illegally. So what do they do? Perhaps they should ask everyone who looks under 20 for ID? Would that be an effective deterrent?

    I think it would yeah. I know being asked for I.D is a pain in the arse from past experiance but at least you know the pub/club is doing it's bit to uphold the law.
    But the problem is, if refused then people just go elsewhere and therefore transfering the problem to another pub/club. It's a bit of a vicious circle really aint it? :rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by One of the Nobodies
    I think it would yeah. I know being asked for I.D is a pain in the arse from past experiance but at least you know the pub/club is doing it's bit to uphold the law.
    But the problem is, if refused then people just go elsewhere and therefore transfering the problem to another pub/club. It's a bit of a vicious circle really aint it? :rolleyes:

    Yep, I agree mate.

    Clearly, there are two groups that need to be targeted in order to effectively reduce the amount of underage drinkers: the people themselves and the pubs/bars and clubs in which they drink.

    People themselves - education (realising the potential consequences of drinking to excess, etc); parents; people being prosecuted as examples of a zero-tolerance attitude.

    The pubs/bars and clubs – education (showing them what excessive drinking could result in and the likely consequences if they serve alcohol to underage people, etc*); highly enforceable laws (this would ONLY happen if the police were considerably more efficient and thus had the time and resources to do it); prosecutions as examples of intolerance (= social stigma if they break they law); must ask for ID from anyone who looks 20/21 or younger (but is this just and thus acceptable?)

    The successfulness of the above is questionable. If it would be possible to change social stigma from being very little to very high, then that would seriously aid the reduction of underage drinkers. But the question is how that could be achieved, if at all. In America, there is such a huge social stigma attached to underage drinking that very few people dare to do it. For instance, a friend of mine (was 18 at the time) went to drink some beer and was stared at by almost everyone in the restaurant. Now that is an unquestionably effective deterrent!

    * A number of people believe that they won't be prosecuted for breaking the law, so it is important to address this problem through, for instance, education or another form that clearly makes them aware of the extremely likely consequences.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'd say yeah something needs to be done, but face facts: people underage will always find some way to drink alcohol. I do :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i dont mind when they act sensibly (like i did at that age (not that long ago)) and when they look old enough, its just when these little pubeless wonders come in and start pissing about that really annoys me (especially if there gobby).

    best course of action : punch them in the arm and make them cry
    :D:D:D
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i'm 16 an i get served in my pub. when i go there i make an effort to at least TRY and look older and most of the time i succed, i dnt act my age at the pub. i am mature about it and i can handle my drink. i dnt go there to get sloshed and make trouble with the older people there. in fact i get along just find with them.
    but sometimes there are people there who just take the piss! i mean they BLATANTLY look under age! they start fights and thay are rude to everyone.
    its THEM that should be band from drinking not the ones who are sitting in the corner minding their own buisness not making any trouble.
    untill people learn to be sensible and realise that yes, even tho drinking is socialy acceptable now, it does not make you COOL if you drink.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Zella
    it does not make you COOL if you drink.


    you mean some people think *it does not make you cool* but some people *still do*. But then again they're sad and they need to learna little.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Underaged people piss me off when they come in to the pub where I work, especially when they get in to a tiff because I ID them. One group of blokes came in with one of the guy's son, who looked about 14 and got really angry because I asked for his ID... I mean don't they respect the fact that we're doing a job and that they're breaking the law?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Creeper
    Underaged people piss me off when they come in to the pub where I work, especially when they get in to a tiff because I ID them. One group of blokes came in with one of the guy's son, who looked about 14 and got really angry because I asked for his ID... I mean don't they respect the fact that we're doing a job and that they're breaking the law?


    shut up!:p


    joke.

    I see what you're saying, looking at Brady's/Centinary/Unchained, you have people younger than me running around thinkng they're *it* because they can get pissed all by themself:rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aye, when you're a kid it's all the rage to be a 'rebel' and get pissed and stoned and smoke... But when you get to my age you just get annoyed because you go to a club and have to check them for pubes before you take them home. :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Are you implying *I* try to be a rebel? Because I don't, I just tend to disagree :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Creeper
    Aye, when you're a kid it's all the rage to be a 'rebel' and get pissed and stoned and smoke...

    i do these three things [well hardly ever get pissed but on special occasions]. Obviously as a 15 year old i do it to look big. Even though i get stoned away from the public eye and smoke away from people where possible, your stereotyping enforces that i still do it to look big.

    :rolleyes: why do youth stereotypes get used so much?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree that underage people should not be in the pub!!

    I didn't go into my local until I was 17 and I was promptly told to leave when my boyfriend bought my an alcoholic drink. Yes, I was embarrassed but now I can laugh about it!

    In general younger people are easy to pick out, and people notice them and comment on them.

    I think kids (because that is what they are after all!) shouldn't be served and I would urge you to contact the Police and get something done about it. Bars in city centres combat this by having bouncers on the doors, it would be awful if our local pubs had to start doing this. :(
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hmm. I started going out when i was 17, and if i got ID'd i just left it and moved on. I still dont get annoyed like some people do when they get ID'd because although i'm 18 i still dont think i really look it, and they're just doing their job after all. Its got to the point in the supermarket where i have my ID out and ready because it saves embarassment all round.

    Theres a rock club/bar in town that is always full of 14 year olds. :rolleyes: I had a slight dilema when i went the other week for my friends birthday (her 18th, not 15th ;) ) and one of the third years (as in 13/14) i am a prefect for was there. I knew it shouldnt really be allowed, but at the same time there wasnt really much i could do about it.

    They got raided there a few months ago, some one obviously had said something, but all they did was tighten up the door controls the next night and then it was back to normal. SO if raiding them doesnt work, what else is there? The police cant moniter all the dodgy clubs all the time!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    a lot of kids my age cant handle their drink, so if they were allowed in pubs it would be anarchy. i think that 17 year olds and thereabouts getting served is of very little problem, as your liver doesnt automatically devlop on your 18th birthday does it???
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by faerielights
    SO if raiding them doesnt work, what else is there?
    A lot of clubs now operate a policy whereby you have to be over 21 to get in. I think this is a bit unfair on the 18 - 20 year olds but I can see why they have done it. It is less likely a 17 year old will slip past their controls if they need to look 21 rather than 18 to get in. I don't advocate this policy but I can see their point, and it does work! I am 19 and I can't even get in a lot of these places, lol! (I wrote that I was 18 there, oops!)

    I don't know what else they can do to be honest. I think the barstaff should ask more people for ID - anyone they remotely suspect. It would be a good idea for them to ask anyone who looks under 21, which is what one pub I go into does (although they know me now as a regular so they don't ask me now!)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What is the incentive for pub/bar and club owners not to serve those looking underage and those, having been asked for ID, that are underage? They are all customers, and thus contribute to the firm's income. Why, then, stop them from purchasing alcohol, when the owners are pretty confident that they will not be "raided" or otherwise investigated, and that no prosecution will result.

    Clearly, therefore, it is absolutely essential to find effective means by which to make the owners question their action and to utterly stop the serving of underage people. This could be achieved, in part, through considerably more police investigations and the enforcement of relevant laws. But this will undoubtedly never occur, because underage drinking is not considered to be sufficiently important to warrant the large amount of resources that could be better used elsewhere (read: inefficency). Accordingly, other means must be found. Perhaps a number of owners could be prosecuted as examples of intolerance, that would send the signal to other owners that they should not under any circumstance served underage people. However, I question the success of this, because the owners would probably still realise that they will not be found out. A much more effective – but incredibly more difficult – deterrent would be to change the social stigma of underage drinking from that of being very slight to exceptionally high (as in America).

    Whatever the deterrent, it is utterly essential that the owners realise that the risk of serving underage people is far greater than the income that would occur from them, and thus not serve them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Pubs who knowingly serve people who are underage.
    Originally posted by One of the Nobodies
    Thing is, the people behind the bar serve 14 and 15 year olds knowing full well that they are obviously under age.
    This annoys the hell out of me

    It annoys me too because I'm 22 and get ID'd!! lol Last night I got ID'd in the pub, and then again when I went into a bar. The bouncer at the bar even asked me if it was my older sisters driving license! I'm 23 in 6 months and they still think I'm under 18 :eek2: How these 16 yr olds get in I dont know! lol
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm so glad so many of you support me on this. I'm going to write to my local police station informing them of the situation.

    I won't have to be brought into anything if a raid does happen will i? I don't want to have to tip them off anonymously as i feel like i shouldn't have to be affraid to give my name but i don't want the entire population of the village knowing it was me who dropped them in the shit.
    Also, will i be taken seriously considering i too am under the age of 18?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im 17 (well almost, my b-days the 22nd!) and i first went out drinking in November last year for my friends birthday! Now i go on a fairly regular basis, by that i dont mean every week but every 2-3 weeks and i still darent actually approach the bar, my friend goes for me! Ive only ever been stopped twice by doormen and one of those times was for a club for where you have to be 21. I do get very insecure and know my *fake* dob better then i know my real one now. To be honest i dont really see the problem with 17 year olds going out. Yes i understand that it is still against the law but most underage drinkers i know are more careful about drinking then my 18 year old friends. We've all had mistakes where we've had a little bit more then we can handle but we learn from it and are more careful. On the whole 17 year olds can be just as mature and are just as capable of knowing the consequences as any 18 year olds.

    I do think there is a problem with the little teenies managing to get in tho, at 14 and 15 i wouldnt even dare try and get served!

    The problem about asking for ID is alot of pubs can be quite busy, especially on a Sat night, usually the staff seem to be concentrating on just getting everyone their orders and not on what age they are.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by One of the Nobodies

    I won't have to be brought into anything if a raid does happen will i? I don't want to have to tip them off anonymously as i feel like i shouldn't have to be affraid to give my name but i don't want the entire population of the village knowing it was me who dropped them in the shit.

    The police will undoubtedly not use your name, for it would be against their ethics to do so without good and proper reason (such as if you were a witness). To further secure this, simply expressly state that you do not want your name to be disclosed, and they will respect this. But as aforementioned, they would not state your name without good and proper reason anyway.

    Try not to worry about it mate - it will be fine.
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