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Suicide is painless

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Or so the M*A*S*H theme says anyway...

So what do you think about this?

What is it that makes the rate higher for men? and do you believe that it is possible for Govt action to affect the rate?

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not sure how the govt will affect the rate, its a very personal matter and the govt is generally a very unpersonal institute, to stop suicide you would have to make people happier.

    I think key reasons for suicide are probably (they must have researched this) abuse at home and unemployment (it certainly is in Japan, but thats different) and I think the govt can affect those issues so maybe there is a chance for this scheme......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    reducing the availability of suicidal methods

    ROFLMAO....back to the padded room again..Good old nanny state.

    If 5000 people a year wanna kill themselves then fucking well let them. Fix the problems in this country and the suicide rates will drop as a side effect.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    wanna kill themselves then fucking well let them
    would you not try and stop someone if you were there, what about people you know personally?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>would you not try and stop someone if you were there, what about people you know personally?</STRONG>

    Obviously id try and stop someone I knew personally, more out of selfish reasons than any other.

    Would I try and stop someone if I were there? Dunno..Id prolly try to talk em out of it cos I wouldnt want someone topping themselves in front of me. Its ultimately their decision to make, not yours, mine or Blairs.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    suicide is a cowardly selfish act <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> If people want to do it there is little the government can do, providing good comprehensive help for depressed folk is about as far as i would take any policiy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by eb:
    [QB]suicide is a cowardly selfish act <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> [QB]

    I totally disagree... it's an act of desparation and unless anyone of us can relate to wanting to kill ourselves I don't think that we should cast judgement on those who do.

    I also think that the government is being a little naive in thinking that they can actually reduce/prevent suicide stats.. In Limerick City, in Ireland, the rate of male suicide is one of the highest in Europe. I come from here and I personally knew 5 males that have committed suicide in the last 2 years. 3 of them were seemingly happy go-lucky 19 - 21 year olds and their deaths came as a total shock to everyone that knew them, their families included. Usually the suicide victim does not give a warning of when, how, where or why they are going to top themselves. Like eb said, if they are going to do it there is little or nothing the government can do to stop it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think girls are more likely to talk to someone beforehand if they are feeling down, or phone the samaritans etc. Men are more likely to bottle up those feelings until they are desperate.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Specific goals are outlined in the proposals, such as reducing the availability of suicidal methods, encouraging the media to report more on suicide and promoting research into prevention

    oooh err! <IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    I think one of the big problems is that terms such as 'Oooh I'm feeling soooo depressed' or 'I want to kill myself' are kinda flung around nowadays or hyped up by certain entertainment outputs, and they aren't really given much thought to what they really mean anymore.

    'Reduce avaliability of suicidal methods?' Come on! If someone is that determined to kill themselves they will always find a way - this is some 'quick fix' thing which will not work

    'Research into prevention?' I'm not even going to bother with this one <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    Society as a whole needs to recognise that 1 suicide is 1 too many and it can happen to anyone. Men especially shouldn't have this macho 'I won't discuss my feelings with anyone' barrier on them, men and women alike can be very vunerable and they need emotional help : the only problem is getting them to get help in the first place (it took me months to get my bf to have councilling)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by The Mammy aka Annie:
    <STRONG>
    Originally posted by eb:
    [QB]suicide is a cowardly selfish act <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> [QB]

    I totally disagree... it's an act of desparation and unless anyone of us can relate to wanting to kill ourselves I don't think that we should cast judgement on those who do.

    </STRONG>

    The huge difference been the words 'wanting' and 'doing' <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Obviously id try and stop someone I knew personally
    Its ultimately their decision to make, not yours, mine or Blairs

    Isn't that a contradiction? Surely you must either entirely repect that persons judgement and not interfere or do whatever you can to stop them. If you think the latter then it isn't just the individual but society as a whole that must try and prevent these acts, hence govt intervention is justified......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Baldy:
    <STRONG>ROFLMAO....back to the padded room again..Good old nanny state
    </STRONG>
    Originally posted by go_away:
    <STRONG>'Reduce avaliability of suicidal methods?' Come on! If someone is that determined to kill themselves they will always find a way - this is some 'quick fix' thing which will not work</STRONG>
    You laugh, but there are very simple things that can be done to reduce the suicude rate - or at least help prevent deaths from suicide attempts.

    Adding 'glutathione promoting factor' to paracetamol tablets instantly makes death by paracetamol overdose impossible.

    More resources directed at mental health are going to help too - not more mental asylums, but realsitic and effective treatments.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>

    Isn't that a contradiction? Surely you must either entirely repect that persons judgement and not interfere or do whatever you can to stop them. If you think the latter then it isn't just the individual but society as a whole that must try and prevent these acts, hence govt intervention is justified......</STRONG>

    Oh its definately a contradiction but thats what happens when things get personal. Im pretty strong in my beliefs but im not stupid enough to think they wouldnt change if they happened so close to me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    [QB]
    You laugh, but there are very simple things that can be done to reduce the suicude rate - or at least help prevent deaths from suicide attempts.

    Adding 'glutathione promoting factor' to paracetamol tablets instantly makes death by paracetamol overdose impossible.
    QB]


    There are at least a dozen things that I could overdose on within 50 feet of me at this very moment. Im sitting in my own house. If someone wants to kill themselves then they will do so regardless of what you do to paracetemol. I could walk outside now and lob myself under a bus.

    You cant possibly reduce suicide by getting rid of certain methods, you can only reduce it by tackling the problems that lead to depression and suicide.

    What are they gonna do? Remove all sharp objects from peoples homes? Sharp sticks? Ropes? Bleach? Paint? Saws? Drills?

    Hell, I could kill myself with a toothbrush if i really wanted.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Glad you admit it, you see it as your duty to help and protect your friends, it is the states role to help and protect its citizens.......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>Glad you admit it, you see it as your duty to help and protect your friends, it is the states role to help and protect its citizens.......</STRONG>

    Not the same thing...The state doesnt work on emotions. Id help a friend for purely selfish reasons. The state has no personal attachment to its citizens and therefore should not act emotionally.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    state has no personal attachment to its citizens
    yes it does, the citizens make up the state and the state must protect them.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>There are at least a dozen things that I could overdose on within 50 feet of me at this very moment. Im sitting in my own house. If someone wants to kill themselves then they will do so regardless of what you do to paracetemol. I could walk outside now and lob myself under a bus.
    </STRONG>
    That's not the point though. People do attempt suicide with paracetamol: it's cheap, you can get it anywhere, and people know it will kill them.
    It was only an example, I didn't say it would prevent all suicides <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
    <STRONG>You cant possibly reduce suicide by getting rid of certain methods, you can only reduce it by tackling the problems that lead to depression and suicide.
    </STRONG>
    Hence my desire for more money and effort to be directed towards mental health (psychiatry as it was).
    <STRONG>What are they gonna do? Remove all sharp objects from peoples homes? Sharp sticks? Ropes? Bleach? Paint? Saws? Drills?
    Hell, I could kill myself with a toothbrush if i really wanted.</STRONG>
    People don't generally use those things to kill themselves though. Keep things in perspective here Baldy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>yes it does, the citizens make up the state and the state must protect them.....</STRONG>


    Not sure what you mean by state mate but to me it means the institutions of government. There is no personal attachment between me and the govt.
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    <STRONG>
    That's not the point though. People do attempt suicide with paracetamol: it's cheap, you can get it anywhere, and people know it will kill them.
    It was only an example, I didn't say it would prevent all suicides .</STRONG>

    Yes but where does it stop? You take away one method of death, they use another.
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    [QB]
    Hence my desire for more money and effort to be directed towards mental health (psychiatry as it was).
    QB]

    I probably agree with that but thats not really what I meant. Psychiatry and mental healthcare are cure rather than prevention.
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    [QB]
    People don't generally use those things to kill themselves though. Keep things in perspective here Baldy.
    QB]

    Yes but my point is that they will start using those things if you ban the things they currently use. You ban knives, paracetemol, sleeping pills etc then they will start on the paint, the household chemicals etc. If someone wants to kill themselves then they will find a way.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by eb:
    <STRONG>

    The huge difference been the words 'wanting' and 'doing' <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"></STRONG>

    It would be hard for any living person to be able to relate to killing themselves <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> but you are right, that there is a difference between wanting to do it, and wanting to do it so much that you do.

    I would imagine that there are many people on this site that have at some point wanted to kill themselves. You say it is a selfish act, but if someone has woken up and fallen asleep every day for several months or years wanting to end their life, there has to be a point where it is not selfish to do so. In fact, it must become selfish for other people to want them not to.

    I would expect in response to that someone to say that you can not be considered selfish to want good people to stay alive, and I would agree. However, if those good people get no enjoyment from life, and don't see a time where they will, then why should they continue to live?[\i]

    Thats not the way I see it, and I speak as someone who has considered suicide myself, as when someone is at that stage of depression, they are not usually capable of seeing issues clearly. But that is how a suicide victim is, in my opinion, likely to think.

    I agree with Balddog that it is stupid to even think that it is possible to remove all methods of suicide. There is always a way.

    The only way, as far as I can see, for the government to reduce suicide rates would be for them to cut out some of the problems of society that cause suicide. Unemployment, homelessness, abuse, ect...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>Yes but my point is that they will start using those things if you ban the things they currently use. You ban knives, paracetemol, sleeping pills etc then they will start on the paint, the household chemicals etc. If someone wants to kill themselves then they will find a way.</STRONG>
    I wasn't talking about banning paracetamol. Perhaps you misunderstood. It simply involves adding a chemical which limits the concentration in the blood.
    Lots of people who attempt suicide on paracetamol live to regret the decision because it takes so long for the drug to have its effect. This leads to people in intensive care, with liver and kidney failure. Not a pretty sight, and something that is easily preventable.

    These drugs weren't invented to allow people to kill themselves by overdosing, and it is simple to prevent.

    Anyway, mental health is certainly not just about cure. The patient needs to display symptoms before a doctor knows what is wrong. The state arguably shouldn't interfere in the life of an asymptomatic patient. Therefore your prevention idea is very difficult to achieve in reality.
    Originally posted by Mindless:
    <STRONG>The only way, as far as I can see, for the government to reduce suicide rates would be for them to cut out some of the problems of society that cause suicide. Unemployment, homelessness, abuse, etc...
    </STRONG>
    Agreed. But those are long term problems.
    There are short term things that can make a difference too.

    [ 30-04-2002: Message edited by: Kentish ]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Few things:

    1. Reducing suicidal methods isnt viable, unless you pull down every bridge and stop running trains.

    2. Men are more likely to actually succeed with suicide, but women are more likely to attempt it. Women tend to use weapons such as drugs overdoeses to commit suicide, which are less fatal, whilst men use things like guns, knives and bridges.

    3. Maybe if the mental health services in this country were actually remotely good there would be less of a problem. Luckily Im a high priority case due to my age, but if I wasnt the waiting list for me for therapy would have been eighteen months. Im very lucky that the psychotherapy department has been vacancy-hunting and has found one for me.

    4. If someone truly wants to commit suicide, they will. They wont tell anyone, they will just disappear and die. Most attempts are last desperate cries for help, after all other avenues have been closed, so the way to stop suicide would be to make the avenues wider. See point three.

    5. I fucking give up with you eb, you are a twat. If anyone you know ends up feeling suicidal theyre fucked, whats your advice? "Stop being depressed, and youll be happy"? You are a stupid little wretch and I cant even be arsed trying to get you to understand mental illness now.
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