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im appalled

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog
    Who decides on which is worse? For example, I would far rather take corporal punishment for a minor crime than spend a year or two in prison.
    Yes, but when people are tortured are they given that choice? I very much doubt it. I also think that torture is not a temporary physical pain as you claim, but the psychological effects are great.

    Furthermore, you would not get a year or two in prison for a "minor" crime.
    I do as it happens consider the prison system to be an ineffective way of dealing with the majority of criminals.
    I quite agree Toaborg. There are many people in prison who pose no threat and would be better dealt with by other measures. Similarly there are many who are not given prison sentences who are a danger and will offend again and again. I do recognise this is going off the main issue somewhat!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BumbleBee

    Yes, but when people are tortured are they given that choice? I very much doubt it. I also think that torture is not a temporary physical pain as you claim, but the psychological effects are great.

    Furthermore, you would not get a year or two in prison for a "minor" crime.

    Are they given the choice when sent to prison?

    Also please let me know what I meant by a minor crime :)

    Obviously I was talking about a crime that would give you a couple of years in prison.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog


    Most overused statement in the history of the world....

    Its also one of the most false...a terrorist is a terrorist.

    All of you who say torture is a violation of human rights and totally awful, what do you think of prisons? Many people would see being locked up in a cell for their entire life as far worse than having their bones broken by captors. Presumably you are all against that as well?
    ....Most overused statement in the history of the world....

    Its also one of the most false...a terrorist is a terrorist.
    so the french resistance were rightly called terrorists by hitler? but we called them freedom fighters. we and america label some as terrorists but call them freedom fighters when we wish to back them financialy and materialy. when we armed osama bin laden to fight the russians he was a freedom fighter. when he fights us he's a terrorist. there are thousands of cases around the world where one side calls then one thing, the other side the other...get real!
    as for prisons i spent some time in hmp strangeways, regarded as one of the worst prisons in western europe. it had convicts from all over the world. all were shocked by the conditions. built in 1850's, by 1985 it still had no running water or sanitation. piss and crap in a bucket. the cell just big enough for one man to have a bad time in, housed four men ...23hrs a day ...24 if it was raing.
    very dirty and violent place. then preston naval prison, built in 1750's ....even worse! leeds prison with a three inch wide by 18inch tall arrow slot as your only source of natural light ...24hrs a day. break the rules and down in the basement for a kicking in solitary and three days on bread and water diet. hard dangerous, dirty, violent prisons. but nothing like camp x-ray! a modern american prison ......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    French resistance fought the german army that was occupying their country.

    Bin Laden fought the soviet army when they were occupying their country.

    Bin Laden was labelled a terrorist when he started attacking American civilians on American soil because he disagreed with the politics of their government.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog
    French resistance fought the german army that was occupying their country.

    Bin Laden fought the soviet army when they were occupying their country.

    Bin Laden was labelled a terrorist when he started attacking American civilians on American soil because he disagreed with the politics of their government.
    the french resistance threw bombs into cafes where civilians were sitting ...and getting killed.
    baldog, at least i own up to not being to well educated. whats your excuse? every short little satement you have made lately is parrot fashion. no ideas. no passion. no clue. no insight.
    your loosing credability in my eyes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Mr Roll,

    Do you want to take a guess at how much I care about my credibility in the eyes of someone like you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog
    Mr Roll,

    Do you want to take a guess at how much I care about my credibility in the eyes of someone like you?
    roflmao!!!
    you made my day. lol!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Despite his obvious past transgressions and lack of formal education I suspect MR is more representative of the mainstream of our respective country's citizens than you or I BD. I actually like the guy even with his lack of sophistication.

    So what if I admitted to having similar questions as to your credibility? ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont have a clue about his education, nor does it matter in the least to me. Having read his posts for quite some time, I would argue about him being representative :)

    Ive not really had a problem with him in the past but when he starts being insulting and rude, it does annoy me. Theres no need for it on an internet message board.

    My credibility isnt in question at all. Ive never given any credentials, Ive never claimed to know anything, ive never claimed to be anything, I just give my opinion like the rest of you.

    Much as I disagree with you, I do respect you Clandestine and if you thought I was talking out of my arse then I would be a little disappointed.

    Interesting thing about MRs outburst today though..He talks of my comments of late but I only got back from 6 weeks away from this site yesterday and havent been posting. I must have made quite an impact in my day of posting.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Point taken. I was merely sounding you out.

    And if i hadnt mentioned it before, welcome back!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog


    Are they given the choice when sent to prison?

    Also please let me know what I meant by a minor crime :)

    Obviously I was talking about a crime that would give you a couple of years in prison.

    No, but you know that when you commit a crime that you are likely to be punished by going to prison. The people in question have not committed a crime but are held captive because they pose a threat to the USA. Granted, many of them may have committed a crime but even still, they are not being punished under their own law and under the juristiction of their own governement. When you commit a crime you know the punishment, and in civil societies that does not include the use of torture.

    You have still not addressed the issue of psychological effects of torture.

    I personally do not consider a minor crime to be one for which you would spend a few years in prison. I would consider that more than minor! To me a minor crime would not result in a prison sentence and would include speeding, disturbing the peace, urinating in the street etc.

    I stand by my original statement that I do not agree with torture in any circumstances.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BumbleBee

    You have still not addressed the issue of psychological effects of torture.

    Thats because I have no experience of it...Many people do suffer psychological problems after torture, many do not. Whether the result of voluntary torture would be the same is unknown.

    Sorry but the definition of minor crime in this context was my own and i specifically meant it to be one that carried a sentance of a few years, that was the entire point..Ill be more clear next time. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog

    Interesting thing about MRs outburst today though..He talks of my comments of late but I only got back from 6 weeks away from this site yesterday and havent been posting. I must have made quite an impact in my day of posting.
    ok bald dog, sorry. i do have a habbit of homing in on one particular person. once again sorry for my little rant. yes you do seem to have posted a lot of replies ...was it only 24hrs?
    i have great respect for clan, even though he has sussed me to be a harmless, unsophisticated muppet! i'm sure theres a compliment in there somewhere ...
    as for me being representative, the bad news is i'm not. i had no formal education as such but i don't consider myself to be as thick as those who are more representative. an awful lot of people, i fear the majority of people, who vote haven't a clue who or what their voting for. i do have an idea. there are many many people who ARE better educated than me who then go out time and again and vote on a single issue. dangerous stuff. there are also a huge amount of very ignorant middle aged people, complete with bald heads, ponytails and numerous bits of metal hanging out of their ears and noses who actualy go out and vote. realy scary! they cannot see beyond voting for any other than who their parents voted for. the middle class vote, despite what the papers say, is i believe in the minority. democracy is not all it should be.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog

    Whether the result of voluntary torture would be the same is unknown.
    I still think that the majority of people would take imprisonment over torture.

    Actually, voluntary torture would not be torture would it? I am sure there would be another name given to it.

    Would you rather have your nails pulled out than spend a yea rin prison? I know which I would rather choose.

    However, I think I would refrain from living in a country that would give me the (sick) option of undergoing physical pain rather than doing prison time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thanks for your sentiments MR. I assure you that you are lovable muppet indeed!

    Regarding my comment of your being representative, I was basing that on the consideration that a significant portion of mainstream society in the UK (educated or not) seem to adopt The Sun mentality on many foreign policy issues whilst in my own country one can find a significant portion of the population enamoured with such sophisticated offerings as the Jerry Springer Show. Any wonder why they are so easily duped by emotive and largely substanceless reporting?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog


    Most overused statement in the history of the world....

    Its also one of the most false...a terrorist is a terrorist.

    All of you who say torture is a violation of human rights and totally awful, what do you think of prisons? Many people would see being locked up in a cell for their entire life as far worse than having their bones broken by captors. Presumably you are all against that as well?

    Are you saying that those who commit crime should not be punished?

    It's a fact that the UNiversal Declaration of Human Rights outlaws torture. It does not condemn prisons. Besides, only those who commit murder would receive a life sentence under the English and Welsh legal system.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by monocrat


    Are you saying that those who commit crime should not be punished?

    Nope, just playing devils advocate really..Every always condemns torture so strongly but its rare that anyone speaks out against imprisonment.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog


    Nope, just playing devils advocate really..Every always condemns torture so strongly but its rare that anyone speaks out against imprisonment.
    That is because imprisonment is a known consequence of a crime. Torture is not.

    Do you actually think that these two can be compared?

    Imprisonment is legal but torture is not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BumbleBee

    That is because imprisonment is a known consequence of a crime. Torture is not.

    Do you actually think that these two can be compared?

    Imprisonment is legal but torture is not.

    Not in this country....

    Yes, I do think they can be compared because I believe that imprisonment can be a form of torture.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog

    Yes, I do think they can be compared because I believe that imprisonment can be a form of torture.
    How so?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BumbleBee

    How so?

    Being locked up, away from everything one loves, for a few years, let alone the rest of your life, can be more painful than anything a torturer can inflict.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog


    Being locked up, away from everything one loves, for a few years, let alone the rest of your life, can be more painful than anything a torturer can inflict.
    Yes, but I would argue that physical pain (from torture that can lead to psychological pain also) is far worse than simple emotional pain.

    You can also see your family at regular intervals.

    I would also argue that when people commit a crime they know the punishment, so how then would you defend torture, which is illegal and therefore a punishment that would be unknown when the act is committed?
    (For example, I rob someone in the street and I know that if I am caught and found guilty I will go to prison. Therefore I know the consequences of my actions. I rob someone in the street and I am tortured for my actions. I did not know this would happen to me)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Psychological pain is the same as emotional pain surely?...I guess it depends on the individual as to which is worse, physical or psychological..Personally ive never experienced either and id hope you hadnt either so I wouldnt know....

    I dont think ive ever defended torture.

    Seeing as this entire discussion is hypothetical and we dont get tortured for 'minor' crimes, its unfair to make your example. If torture was used as punishment rather than imprisonment then the person committing the crime would know that would happen.

    Thats getting a little off the point though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog
    Psychological pain is the same as emotional pain surely?.
    I would argue that psychological pain is quite different from emotional pain.

    Emotions involve strong feelings which can change over time. Emotional pain is often only short term.
    Psychological pain, in my (non scientific) opinion relates more to the mind and the psyche... I am finding it difficult to put into words, which I am not afraid to admit.

    I do agree we are getting off the point somewhat! I do admit that you did not defend torture rather than condemn imprisonment. I would be interested to know what method of punsishment you prefer? I myself do not believe that imprisonment should be the preferred method in many many cases.
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