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The war and ignorance

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
At my school today there was some kind of anti-war protest thing that most of the students of my school ended up taking part in. I was one of the few who chose not to take part in it. The majority of people just did it to get out of lessons, and those who were really anti-war didn't seem to know much about the issue - just a mass display of ignorance really.

But yes, freedom of speech is a right and we should all be given the right to speak - however, that doesn't mean that it's not possible for people to abuse that right. Each and every time somebody goes out there and makes a statement that isn't based on fact, or contradicts fact, or is just mouthing off for their own personal gain, or just to hear their voice, we all suffer.

The issue here isn't whether they are for or against the war. That point is a different matter. It's that they probably failed to back up their claims, and thus sounded like fools. Fools which I had to listen to.

There is nothing more beautiful than somebody giving their opinion, and then a thorough explanation to how he ended up with their particular stance. It doesn't matter if that person's opinions are for or against mine, if he can make a good point, then I will respect him. However, if somebody goes out there and states their claim, without looking at both sides of the argument, or researching their topic, then I will hate that person with avengance.

What people don't seem to understand here, is that America isn't declaring war on Iraq. In a way, Iraq is declaring war on the U.S. The terms that created the cease-fire agreement, and ended the first Iraq war, were ignored by Saddam. The US spent months of it's time, trying to get resolutions passed, trying to get Iraq to disarm, in a peaceful manner. But no, Saddam didn't want to disarm.

The US didn't want to go to war. And Saddam wasn't going to disarm through the U.N. So, what's the solution? Let the man sit and scheme, building weapons to use against his neighbours, and his own population? The man is an evil, despisable man. It's as if we're having protests in Hitler's honour. Everyone that protests against the war, is protesting for Saddam: a man that is a ruthless murderer, andr is capable of damage I dare not dream of.

The US has done far worse in the past, and I do not believe for a second that this is an unjustified war. Will the US be making money off of it? Yes. Will soldiers die? Yes. Will the peoples of Iraq be liberated? Yes. Will turmoil in the middle east start to simmer down? You bet. :p

There's no definite stance to look at this war, and of course you cannot argue against peace. However, peace isn't free. Peace hasn't always been there, and we only chose to recognize it lately. The only way you can gain peace, is through war. How was Nazi Europe freed?

Peace will not work this time around, for not all the parties involved are looking for it. I know that the outcome may be either good or bad when the US goes into Iraq. It is a gamble. However, the outcome of letting Saddam staying in power is only bad. So, when it comes down to it, I'm for war. Not only that, I've made my stance, and expressed why it is so.

That in my opinion, sure beats, "War is wrong! Blair sucks! Bush sucks! He hates everybody! He only wants war because he's an evil nazi!"

Don't you think?

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh, and don't move this to Politics! :p It's not "really" politics stuff, plus I'm never gonna venture into that forum.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    *and i thought you was just a pretty face*:p :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm a pro war type of guy & I back Bush and Balir 100%. Of course we have out own opinions and that's good but I think people should wake up and see there is no way in this world Saddam will disarm all his arsenal and dump bio/chemical products. We have given him long enuff to get rid of his stuff but he is playing every body for fools. If you wanna sit there and watch him build up and massive arsenal of deadly weapons then so be bit...But by doing this you gotta understand there will far more worse happen if we don't stop him now.

    America declared war on terror and Saddam is involved one way or another with terrorist groups so really the USA has decared war on all country's that support terrorism or have some form of involement...That also counts for Iraq.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have to disagree. A lot of these kids at your school may not know much about the issues, but then again are they taught about them? Who sits down in schools today and teaches kids about current affairs? Nobody as far as I can see.

    The media just expect people to know the background to this conflict and assume everyone does when they are reporting. It may be difficult for people to actually seek out the information.

    At the end of the day the anti-war protesters are against war for whatever means. Just because they don't stand outside shouting about everything they know about the conflict doesn't mean they don't know anything. In a lot of cases it may be because they don't have a clue - but I wouldn't blame them for that.
    It's that they probably failed to back up their claims, and thus sounded like fools.
    Did you talk to them all? Did they have the time / opportunity / space to list all of their knowledge? I would guess that many of them knew more about it than you think.

    I would argue that it doesn't matter how much they know about it, they may be simple pacifists and be against war under any circumstances, I don't think it is up to you to judge them. Just because their political opinion isn't as knowledgeable as yours doesn't mean that they are not entitled to their opinion. I for one think it is about time something (anything!) happened to get young people interested in politics!
    That is not to say I don't agree with you that people should be better informed! Today on the bus I could hear a lady ranting about how she was going to build an air-raid shelter in her back garden to protect herself from a chemical attack! :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jay-O, there are plenty of threads in the politics forum about the "war" etc. I thought this one was about political opinion being backed by knowledge!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BumbleBee
    At the end of the day the anti-war protesters are against war for whatever means. Just because they don't stand outside shouting about everything they know about the conflict doesn't mean they don't know anything. In a lot of cases it may be because they don't have a clue - but I wouldn't blame them for that.


    But as you say, virtually none of them know much about the conflict - so why do they feel they have a right to march out of school for a day and rant a rave about an issue they're generally clueless towards? If I don't know much about a particular thing, I won't really comment on it, and certainly not going around protesting that my view is right - so why do they?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah, but school kids are thick and will do shit like that. The people who went and did that massive march made me laugh. "The nation has spoken" fuckin pish. I didn't go, nor did anyone I know, what about the other 40 million people, eh? Save the innocent people from dying! That's what the intentions are, being nice and placcid about it, and using authorities to get Saddam to disarm ain't working, he's buying as much time to move his booty from place to place, he's going and doing a Bin Laden by scarpering place to place. He's getting more body doubles, building more artillery. He's dictating more and more to his people and threatening them to back his coniving behind up when push coems to shove and there is a war. Otherwise, he will kill them, and their families. They are going to die, not through ourselves going to war, but by having to force yourself to fight for a leader you have burning hate for. I hate Saddam. He supplies for terrorists, terrorists with no intention but of malice. I know America have been searching for a reason to strike back at September 11th, and they are fired up for it. This links to it, I believe, and I'll be glad they will feel justice has happened. As for Britian, well, I know our boys'll be fighting fit and dying for a bit of rough and tumble since they've been waiting in the dunes for so many weeks. The last war lasted 3 months. That was 12 years ago, and look how technology and technique has changed. I'd say 3 weeks, at least. They won't stop, they won't let that same mistake happen of leaving Saddam to his own means, they will take that son of a bitch out, and send him down where his deeds belong.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    my my.

    stream of conciousness, eh?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Shukes
    If I don't know much about a particular thing, I won't really comment on it, and certainly not going around protesting that my view is right - so why do they?
    Yes but it doesn't make their feelings on the matter any less valid does it? Like I said, I am glad so many young people are taking an interest in this matter, after all it effects us all.

    This conflict will have an impact on their lives and just because they don't fully understand the causes doesn't mean they don't comprehend the effect it will have on them. They are entitled to their opinion.

    What I totally hate however, is people who use this thread to rant and rave about their views when that wasn't the question! Some people seem to have misread this thread as "write your opinion on Iraq" rather than answered the question in hand about ignorance!

    I would like to see current affairs taught or discussed in schools. I would also like the media to anticipate that many people don't have a freaking clue what the origins of all this is and explain it to them!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be fair, not that many young people are really "taking an interest" in the matter - stating your opinion on something you know virtually nothing about isn't taking an interest; only reading up about it, and then giving your opinion with valid reasons why is taking an interest. Sure a lot of High School kids took part a protest but lets face it, a lot of them did it to get out of school work for a few hours.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As you know I have to go out now, but you know I still don't agree! :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I am going off on a tangent by expressing my views on the war, so bear with me.

    ---

    Life is concerned with achieving a balance between two or more factors. In terms of the war, this is the potential risk of having weapons of mass destruction and using them, and the inevitable loss of life as a result of an attack.

    My stance on the war is very simple. Firstly, there must undoubtedly be reasonable suspicion that Hussein has weapons of mass destruction and that he is likely to use them. Secondly, and most importantly, it is the task of the UN, as essentially the prosecution, to prove Hussein guilty of having and potentially using such weapons beyond all reasonable doubt. This is the best, most just standard of proof, and is based upon evidence.

    Hussein, as the defence, does not need to prove his innocence. However, his lack of cooperation with the weapons inspectors might suggest that he has something to hide, but it does not prove guilt, for it is merely an assumption - not evidence.

    If there is evidence that proves Hussein guilty beyond all reasonable doubt then an attack would be justified. If there is not, then it would be unjust and thus should not occur.

    However, should the standard of proof be lowered to 'we reckon he's guilty' because of the potential risk should he have such weapons, which would enable a quicker attack? Or should it be increased to 'guilty beyond all doubt' in view of the gravity of this situation, which would take longer to prove? Which would be most just? I believe that the current standard of proof is most applicable.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shukey, that was elegantly and eloquently put.
    Backed up your opinion with extremely valid points, and it was certainly digestable for the people who don't like to read "heavy stuff".

    I only choose quality slaves, and you are my favourite of them ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im 17 and in 6th form. I have to say i strongly disagree with the war. What i think is bad is when people try to stop others getting their points of view across. At my school the head basicly said that we are all not allowed to have our own opinions and that if we walked out we would be in shit. She claimed we are too young to understand. This may be true in some cases, but now in all! I came in wearing a t-shirt saying 'No! To! War!' and i got mixed reactions. Some teachers thought it was great that i was showing my feelings and others complained. Everyone should be able to express how they feel if they wish!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why won't you go in politics when you are so excited about well supported and well put arguments?

    Anyhow.....

    I agree that it is nice when people have arguments to back up their stance but I feel it is unreasonable to suggest that people should only express their view in such a situation when it comes to important matters.

    Of course it is foolish for the vast majority of people to start going on abvout irrigation systems of the aztecs but this is an issue of minor importance.

    When it comes ot issues of such importance as Iraq then it is important that people express their opinion, even if it is only intuitive because it effects us all. Whilst i would hope people would research the issue etc this can nit be expected of everyone, especially 16 year olds (no offence to any 16 year olds)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Fairy
    Im 17 and in 6th form. I have to say i strongly disagree with the war. What i think is bad is when people try to stop others getting their points of view across. At my school the head basicly said that we are all not allowed to have our own opinions and that if we walked out we would be in shit. She claimed we are too young to understand. This may be true in some cases, but now in all! I came in wearing a t-shirt saying 'No! To! War!' and i got mixed reactions. Some teachers thought it was great that i was showing my feelings and others complained. Everyone should be able to express how they feel if they wish!

    What, so you need to walk out of school and stage a protest just to give your opinion do you? You can't stage a protest shouting about how you hate war if you don't even say why. You have to make sure you know the facts and be prepared to give anyone who asks a good reason for why you believe what you do before you go around telling everybody what you think.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Re: The war and ignorance
    Originally posted by J
    Why hate them? What good will come from hating a person, surely it's better to guide or educate them, after all wars can often times start from the seed of hate.

    I was kinda exaggerating. :p

    Maybe sometimes when someone tells you that something is bad that is all they know. Their coniouse might tell them for example, but it doesn't give them a long-winded explanation as to why it's bad. If that person isn't as bright as another then he/she may not be able to give an explanation for what they feel. It might be like asking someone to explain what love is, which is what you’re doing when you ask someone about a point of view that stems from love.

    I'm probably way off here!

    True, but a lot of the people I've encountered who I have badgered into giving me a reason for their particuarly opinion on Iraq have mostly proven themselves to be scarily ignorant to the facts (eg. Saddam is gonna nuke us if we attack; all Bush wants is war cause he hates Iraq for no reason; we might die, etc) - and also a significant amount of them want to keep out of the conflict because they think "its nothing to do with us". I hate to appear to be looking down on these people, but are lot of them really have no idea what they're really protesting against and are completely uninformed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    please Shukes come and join a politics debate and lets see how well the well supported arguments you are so proud of satnd up......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I never said i dont have anything to say about it! Basicly I think Tony Blair is a complete idiot. It seems to me that he is just following the US because they are powerful. What he should be doing is listening to what people have to say about the situation and not rushing into war.
    I do have a proper opinion, it makes me angry when people assume things...Anyway i didnt walk out and protest in the end, but i think if a lot of people get together to do this then it can make a difference :P
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    please Shukes come and join a politics debate and lets see how well the well supported arguments you are so proud of satnd up......

    I was thinking that...

    Three reasons: Chile, Nicaragua, Palestine. Reaserach them, then come back and tell me the US are doing it out of the goodness of their blessed hearts.

    But thats not the point.

    There are a lot of things that are not explainable in rational terms; consicence and love, as J pointed out, and nor are morals. they may not be able to provide x number of reason about not going to war, they may not know enough history to do so, but they know that, crucially, the US and UK have not made any justified claims, as of yet. Remember that the otehr side not proving a case is just as strong a reason to not support something as any other; if you do not know enough to support mindless bloodshed, then you should not support it. after all, there is so much that I know about and you do not about thsi conflict, andf there are things you know that I do not. Never ignore anothers opinion because of a perceived lack of facts, opinion cannot just be created by facts. Otherwise all those in favour of war wouldnt be.
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