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political leanings
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
So....how did you get to believe in what you believe in. Are your politics totally dictated by your parents, have you explored all avenues.
Are you stuck in a rut where you believe that what you think is the truth IS the truth.
How many of us have travelled, seen a bit of the way things are in other places, explored other religions (Or just any religion if you weren't brought up religious)
Do you believe in God..WHY? is it because yu have never been taught any different?
Do you support the Labour party because your parents did?
would be interesting to know.
Are you stuck in a rut where you believe that what you think is the truth IS the truth.
How many of us have travelled, seen a bit of the way things are in other places, explored other religions (Or just any religion if you weren't brought up religious)
Do you believe in God..WHY? is it because yu have never been taught any different?
Do you support the Labour party because your parents did?
would be interesting to know.
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Comments
I find it endlessly amusing that those such as Aladdin put so much stock in "International Law" when dealing with the likes of Sodamn Insane. It is so like a flock of sheep deciding that mutton should not be on the dinner menu handed out to the wolves...
Those whom I know in the real (non-cyber) world - who have survived the moment of combat - come back with the realization that "laws" are an illusionary constraint which control only the willing. It is to my amazement that we were not "retired" - as the Bladerunner "retired" Replicants - when we came back to the world. Terrifying concept, to have warriors walking amongst the virgins.
"Might" may well not equal philosophical "right", but it damn well decides who survives the moment to consider the question. You can either live with the awareness, or die in denial. Your choice...
************************
In answer to your quiry: I grew up with leftist leanings, from liberal parents. Exposure to the world not protected by illusions, trashed that liberalist perspective, and I came back decidedly conservative.
Hey I have a country your mentality fits perfectly in! Just stay behind and become a citizen of Iraq once the dust has settled.
I am not the one working as a Sock-puppet of Baghdad.
How about not hijacking the thread, and rather leaving it to the question forwarded...? Or do your handlers not approve of that?
I actually prefer open discussion with those of a differing mindset, and have witnessed a shift in the politics of many of the long time posters on this forum, when exposed to something outside of their homogenous teachings / upbringings.
Hiya...I posted the question....and you aint answered it yet
I also think that a foot soldier is more likely to question things, after all it's their lives on the line. Their decision is likely to be faster and less wooly, which is what you get in diplomacy.
Personally though my political beliefs come from what I have learned by experience, and by listening to my parents and grandparents and their experiences. Although I'm certainly more cynical than any of them.
My GF was anti-war, but then he had fought in one. He still believed though that there are times when it is necessary and that's what I learned from him.
I'm also more right wing now than I used to be. Reality isn't a pretty as the left wants us to think. I've tried to lose that naivety that I had in my youth. I'd like to think that I have a sense of perspective, and I will listen to all aspects of an argument.
Before I take up a position on any subject I try to read into it a little. I appreciate things like this forum which make me think about why I hold certain views and sometimes, occassionally, I change my view based on discussion I've had.
Neither have you
Oh, hang on, wasn't Globe's the first response you got?
So, just you then...
After the fiascos of the Reagn and then Bush Sr. admins, I saw all too clearly that the right were (to apply the terminology of Thanatos) sock puppets for the MIC (Military Industrial Complex) and big money interests and cared more for increasing wealth at the top than they did either for upholding the Constitution of US or the welfare of the majority of its citizens (let alone the citizens of other nations).
I have travelled both privately and professionally throughout most of Latin America, West and Eastern Europe (including the former Soviet block), as well as Africa. I have also worked for a number of years at the start of my career for the European Parliament (now an independent policy analyst working for several multilateral organisations including NATO and the EU).
I believe in God but do not subscribe to any organised religion.
Im not a UK citizen so I never voted for Labour. If I were to have been a UK citizen Id probably vote Lib Dem our of disgust for both major parties.
Ah well I was waiting and listening...but I guess I'm pretty much the same as you.
I was brought up by Left wing parents and did all the CND/support the nurses/Help the Miners stuff. I threw eggs at the sec. of state for Wales before I even knew why I was doing it.
My dads parents were tories and he kind of rebeled against them, my mums parents were working class and un-educated but probably left wing.
When I was 16 I bought all the manifestos ofthe major parties and read them, determined to know what each one stood for because if I was going to vote at the next election I wanted to know what I was voting for!
I haven't travelled much, just Ireland (!) but I am aware of the constitutional history of the UK and the history of some others through reading.
I have definately been influenced by my parents - I am not religious because they brought me up not to be, however just as I did with Politics I made an effort to find out about other people's beliefs and I respect other peoples ability to have faith.
Recently I have noticed that some of my opinions/beliefs could be seen to veer toward right wing theories, specially those to do with welfare, children and education.
Most importantly I think I was brought up to think of society as a whole rather than of the individual, to respect other cultures and races, and to be prepared to listen to other people and accept that my opinion can be changed!
As it is hearing that those who have spent a few years in a senseless killing spree 10,000 miles from home for no reason whatsoever are the only ones capable of passing judgement on current affairs or living in 'reality'.
It's a funny 'reality' out there when one feels the need to take an AK-47 to go to the grocery store, and still sees his town, streets as surroundings as a "jungle" where enemies are ready to jump at you from all directions. A reality of the Nintendo variety.
A few days ago you posted a long essay about how you enlisted in the Army out of responsibility and duty to pay back your country for the freedoms you enjoy. One thing you consistently fail to see is that you and others have been used and tens of thousands of lives lost at the hands of the US government that has used you all in its political games. To be killed in a foreign country on the other side of the world because of your country's irrational phobia of communism, expansionist policy or potential for profit is not my idea of "dying to defend your country".
Buy yourself a round-the-world trip and spend some time seeing the world- not as a soldier but as a tourist- and you might discover that the militarist, violent, bully world you believe we live in is not so. That contrary to the aggressive hawkish foreign policy the US has adopted for the last 5 decades you are so happy to embrace, there are other ways of dealing with other nations (the most basic one being leave them alone and stop bullying everyone just because you might profit from it).
But hey what do I know? I haven't killed anybody in combat and I'm a supporter of dictators and terrorists. Clearly not qualified to question of ethics of bombing other nations at will.
How I got to believe in what I believe in?
Like MoK, experiencing (*awaiting Clandestine's usual "At the age of 16, you should still be nappies" reply*), hearing what my parents and what my grandparents had to say about their experiences.
My background?
Both of my grandparents on my dads side came from extremely religious Jewish families.
After/during WW2 they both decided to abandon everything they had learnt at home. Abandoned their religion, and my grandmother even took a name-change. She didn't wan't to experience the Holocaust again (where only her and two sisters survived, originally from a family of 7), cause of something she had no control over.
My granddad also went from one extreme side to the other. He joined the communists.
After WW2 he gained a high position in the Polish army (am sick, and my head isn't functioning as it should, so I can't recall) in the Polish air force. A position where you had to be among the greatest communists to get a task with just the smallest significance.
After the decleration of Israel he got an offer to get a job within the army there. As far as i know the position he got offered was higher than the one he had, but he declined. That's how heavy his ideals were.
My dad and uncle grew up, with nothing of religious content. Basically only knew that they were Jews.
And you know when the first time my dad actually visited a synagogue was? In Italy, when him and his family had fled from Poland due to the same communists who had employed my granddad. The same communists who made it impossible for my dad and uncle to get a future with any possibilities, in that same country.
Harsh reality slap, huh?
On my moms side both of her brothers had extended duty in the IDF. So did both of my cousins.
Unlike my dad my mom came from an orthodox religious family, who'd probably lost hope, if it wasn't for their religion.
I grew up in Denmark now. First time i recall a political situation is during the Gulfwar when I'd used to see those "pretty green things" flying over Israel in the TV. When my cousins sent us pictures of them, with gasmasks on. When I later on vistied, and they still had traces of cellotape on their window, who'd protect as much as possible, if a bomb should decide to land outside.
Stonethrowers, being near car-bombs, neer the shootings, experiencing panic surrounding "possible bombs", having family experience a bomb blowing in front of their eyes, is what has made my experiences.
I don't think that any kid who is mature enough to understand the consequences of war, immedeately looses hope. I think it comes with the years.
I'm the first child of religious parents who started poor and are now pretty well off. They did that through their own efforts, not anyone else's, and they did it by retaining their sense of right and ethics. My paternal Grandparents were Salvation Army Officers, and my maternal Grandfather an Irishman who died many, many years ago from cancer...having fled Ireland because "I won't live in a country where people kill each other over how to worship the same god". My maternal Grandmother raised the family by herself...7 kids and a job as a seamstess.
My families politics are "throw the bastards out every four years...so they can do as little damage as possible". I was expected to pursue a career in business or medicine. I rebelled..
Paid my own way through school, got a liberal arts degree (history)...grew my hair long and a beard and ran my own photography business. Learned that business is hard, and successful businessmen must be ethical in the long term. Also learned that all the liberal ideas I had picked up in school and in my rebellion were ideas that will not put food on the table, or pay the rent (unless you have so little self-respect as to let the government be responsible for you).
As a photographer, I did a lot of traveling. Europe, the Middle East, Asia, South America. What I saw was not especially encouraging. It was a lot of people without any say in their lives, without the basic ability to make a difference. They were beholden to corrupt politicians who controlled their entire existence. Clandestine may claim that American politicians or business do so, but they don't. Not really. Every 4 years, the American public can "kick the bastards out" if they so desire. And the American public can deal or not deal with businesses...just a matter of how hard the choices are. But it can be done. In a lot of the rest of the world, there are tremendous numbers of people who do not recognize that they can influence their own lives. And in some cases, they can't at all.
Well, after a while, seeing this brought me to the idea of service because I realized through personal observation that all these wonderful causes were not making any difference at all. I chose not to serve with the Salvation Army, although it was a course I considered. I chose not to serve in the United States Marine Corps because my Uncle (A Marine at the Chosin) threatened to kill me if I joined the Corps. I took a commission in the United States Army as an Infantry Officer. Served as a Platoon Leader in the 101st Airborne Division and learned something about young men who will risk their lives for the man beside them and for their country. Entered Special Forces for the opportunity to make a difference in those countries that need help, and have spent the last 20+ years all over the world working with the oppressed and the poor to influence their own lives, make their own choices. I've helped to dig wells, build schools, teach farming and sanitation, treat diseases, and demine areas. I've also helped to liberate people by the force of arms. I have seen the results of my actions. Felt the thanks of those we've helped, and felt the loss of brothers who gave their life so others might be free.
My personal politics are closer to Libertarian than any other organized party (although I do not agree with Libertarian foreign policy). I believe very strongly that people have the right to determine their own lives, to make their own decisions and to live with the consequences of those decisions.
Oh, yes, I believe in God. I've yet to meet anyone who has faced sure death and survived who didn't believe in God. I live in a country that is mostly Buddhist, and respect their beliefs. I have neighbors who are Muslim, and I respect their beliefs. I expect them to respect mine.
I think about the people in our military a lot. And appreciate them. Greenhat, you should see all of the Americans flying flags in front of their houses.
I was going to but got distracted by an unprovoked attack
I was born in Madrid. Both my father's and mother's families were working class and lived in the same neighbourhood. My grandfathers became friends in the Civil War (both fighting for the Republicans of course
My father is agnostic and my mother Catholic. My dad used to be involved with the church when he was younger but grew disillusioned with the institution. My mother took me (and my siblings before me) to church every Sunday but one by one we all stopped going the second we were old enough. My mum is not a god-botherer as such and hasn't kicked any fuss about me or my siblings living with partners or renouncing our religion (although she'd rather we went to church).
Most of my family, including uncles & aunties are of social-democrat tendencies. Although some have voted to the right wing party on occasion they all believe in the Northern Europe social-democrat (intelligent Left my father calls it
Although I love my country and what's good of it I am not afraid to criticise it or even take a position contrary to Spain's line on something if I feel it's wrong. I am not more proud of being Spanish than I am of being left-handed. Everyone's got to be born somewhere and there is no much point being proud of it. Same goes for defending your country's stance on something even when you believe it to be wrong, just for the sake of siding with your nation.
I've been living in the UK for 9 years and I am happy I did it. I truly believe everyone should live abroad for a year or two and mix with the native culture. It's a great eye opener.
That's one eye right E- Gore.
That's I Gore.
Love that movie.
I went on to a Catholic college - at this point though, politically I could care less, my dad, a 2 tour Vietnam vet instilled in me a sense of patriotism and respect for our nations military. Beyond that and my belief in the 2nd amendment, I didnt care a bit about politics.
During my freshman year I was dating a girl who was extremely Republican and went with her to a Pat Buchannan rally for President - that pretty much changed everything for me. I came to realize the Republican party was the one that stood for what I felt was important and that the liberal party, the democrats, for the most part, wanted nothing more than to expand the size of government to ridiculous proportions and generally assert their control over my life. This includes taxes, what I am allowed to say and not say and the general notion that mankind cannot sustain his own existence - I prefer to work and keep my accomplishments as opposed to sharing with someone who refuses to work; Republicanism is merely an affirmation of my right and ability to succeed and enjoy that success unencumbered by someone demanding I share.
In effect, that shapes my political leanings.
What has 'God' got to do with politics?
I'm probably the only member of my family with a great interest in politics. I consider myself a classical liberal/libertarian.
Reading comprehension challenge, definitively exemplied?
Perhaps I should post it in Spanish, if English is beyond your cope of understanding?
Another error in comprehension.
I received a draft notice, while doing under-grad work in astro-physics, on an athletic scholarship. Conscription would have put me in the US Army; I was a "draft-resistor", and hid out on Parris Island...
Before you get overly excited at the revelation... it means I enlisted in the Marine Corps. Although you apparently have no understanding of the difference between the two branches of service, there decidedly is. If you ask Greenhat politely, he might explain it to you...
Actually, I quite prefered having that ticket paid for by those who sponsored my racing professionally, internationally, for fifteen years. Saw quite alot of the world, thank-you, and it softened some of the issues which I brought back from my two tours, in-country. What you are getting is a glimpse of the "kinder, gentler incarnation", three decades after the moment of edification.
In agreement, there. My faith in God is much deeper than it was prior to the edification.
There is a passage in the Book of James that speaks of "rejoicing in your tribulations"... I never thought that those tribulations "ennobled" a person, but rather, tended to knock the crap out of you, so that you were not so distracted by the extraneous trivial icons of your life, but focused more completely on what it is which you truly value.
But then... what would I know? After all, I am nothing more than a "low-life", jarhead grunt, who did a job that most scurry from...
When I was a teenager - in high school - I bought into the liberalist idiology. I was on a first name basis with Wayne Morse, and campaigned for him. I campaigned for Eugene McCarthy. I believe that if everyone simply played nice, we could all get along.
I was knifed when I was 16, shot when I was 17, both times in East Oakland, both times by a black man, and both times my offense was being in the wrong place with the wrong color of skin. I developed a simmering racial hatred. Issue was addressed in Vietnam, where I was carried wounded and unconscious on the shoulder of one of my grunts to a Huey in a very hot LZ. He took a round in the back of his head, and traded his life for mine. My Brother who saved my life, at the cost of his? Was also Black...
Have heard alot of bullshit from certain quarters concerning the military mind, and the willing sheep led to slaughter... so I will break protocol and let slip one "war-story" concerning my service. Nearly two decades ago, I knelt at a long stone wall, found the name of my Brother who had died in my place, and left a Silver Star at the base of that wall, in respect for his sacrifice.
The men I served with did not buy into the concept of heroes... they lived heroic lives, and "heroic" was expected and demanded, on a daily basis. We fought beside each other, bled with each other, and so many of them died, beside me. When the bullshit disrespecting those who have served is spread in my presence? It demeans those whose sacrifices over-shadow the lives of the most who have EVER walked the earth. And I will respond.
Coming from the experience where we covered each other, to the literal death, I also have experienced being abandoned, and left to die. It has happened three times, and each time, it was in the civilian world, by those of a decidedly liberal mindset. My own experience? Friendship and commitment are not matters of convenience.
I do not genuflect at the feet of ANY political party; I judge men upon what they present to me, the lives they live, not just the words they use. Spent half an hour talking with Jimmy Carter, a quarter of a century ago, and enjoyed the man, respected the man. Do I carry the exact same beliefs? No. However, that does not detract from the issue of respect. Likely one of the few truly moral presidents that the US has had in the last century. And Mr Carter and I share a faith - substantiated in our disparate lives - in the exact same God.
My philosophy in life rather follows in the teachings of that God... "tough love". I am quite able to be gentle, and have empathy for those of less fortunate circumstance. However, they must be willing and working toward bettering themselves for me to help carry their load. No free ride, from this one... Only place in the world I have found true self-sacrifice, as the norm? Was in that dreaded military.
UM..in some countries it has quite a lot to do with politics
If I was given a quid for every time you have called us 'liberals who hate guns' sheep and willing vicitms I'd have enough money to buy my private jet.
Oh yes, the Marine Corps. A Marine is for life, not only during his time in the Army eh?
You still avoid the issue. Have you seen yet that you were used by your government to fight a war that had nothing to do with defending your country, and everything with political games, ignorance and hatred of ways of life that didn't adhere to the American free-trade capitalism? Do you find the deaths of 50,000 of your fellow men in a senseless war thousands of miles away from home acceptable?
It doesn't in the UK or US, does it?
Maybe not here, but if you think that religion plays no part in politics in the US then you have never heard of the Christian right.
Look above ^^^^^ someone mentioned Pat Buchanan. It might be worth you checking him out...
Not really. The C of E only has a few bishops that sit in the House of Lords (and they may be removed if/when reform of the second chamber is complete). The church has no major role in the executive or legislative process in Britain.
Ah, so you believe the extermination of the Dega is just fine, huh, Aladdin?
Go ask Vietnamese, specifically those who lived in the South during the conflict, what they think of American involvement. Do a large enough poll of both those still in Vietnam and those who emigrated to get a valid result. You might be surprised to learn that they don't feel it was a senseless war, or that the United States, Australia, New Zealand, S. Korea, Thailand and Taiwan were involved in something that wasn't their business.
Did soldiers there believe they were there to help a people... or to rid the world of the "Communist scum"?
And a wide poll might be indeed needed to establish exactly how grateful the Vietnamese are for your intervention. Including those from the North, or caught beneath a spectacular napalm display, or ruined by the lovely agent orange, or the relatives of the victims of that infamous little village massacre and indeed of many areas simply flattened by wave after wave or carpet bombing.
Well, you continue to illustrate how little you know of the conflict. There were two nations until 1975, remember? How the North felt is immaterial. They were the invaders. Of course, you might find that discussion not going as you expect, either. I had a General of the Vietnamese Army (formerly of the NVA) tell me that the Americans were the best thing that happened to Vietnam, and he meant during the 1960s....
The fact remains that you didn't send one of the biggest task forces in history to help a people because you felt sorry for them. You went there and pounded an army/fighting faction that had no quarrel with you with everything you got because of your profound hatred of communism. It's all very well to say that some people are grateful for what you did- there is always someone who is going to be grateful, depending on what side they're on.
I'm sure they see their dealings with the "Moi" as good and noble too.
And what is left of Communism? Not much. Of course, maybe you think that the actions of governments such as Lenin's, Stalin's, Kruschev's, Ho Chi Minh's, Castro's and Mao Tse Tung's should be admired?