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Hunting, testing etc.etc.

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was going to stay out of this, because we've had this argument over and over again on here. Yet I see the same crap being trotted out each time - mainly that its not about hunting, but class war.

    Well, basically Skeeter, you are wrong. I hold no truck with class warriors, a bunch of mindless morons. But I cannot abide hunting either.

    Now before you say anything, let me just point out atht I am a born and raised country boy, not some townie.

    anyway...
    Originally posted by Skeeter Thompson
    They enjoy the chase, the ride and the social aspect of a hunt as ive already said.

    So why kill the fox? What's wrong with drag hunts?

    after all it's all about the chase, the ride and the social aspect...
    It's usually weak foxes that are killed because a lot of hunts they dont actually catch a fox. Weak foxes that would of died in winter due to starvation over a long period of sufferring.

    One is nature's intention, the other is human interference. Can you guess which is which?

    The weak die, that is nature. To kill for fun - something you do not deny - is simply inhumane, and more to the point unnecessary. As you say, the week will die naturally.
    I think what all this boils down to is people have a problem because it is seen as a upper class activity ("climb off that expensive horse"). This is wrong anyway but most people are too ignorant to go to a hunt and find out. A wide range of classes participate on hunts.

    and yet you claim that the anti-hunt lobby are more interested in class. Don't you think that we are aware that hunting isn't restricted to a specific class?

    I really couldn't care less if its Prince William or my next door neighbour, killing animal for fun is unacceptable.
    We eat meat because we enjoy it.

    Basic biology dictates that we are omnivores. Regardless of your vitamin substitue argument, nature has intended that we eat both meat and vegetables.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent
    I was going to stay out of this, because we've had this argument over and over again on here. Yet I see the same crap being trotted out each time - mainly that its not about hunting, but class war.

    Well, basically Skeeter, you are wrong. I hold no truck with class warriors, a bunch of mindless morons. But I cannot abide hunting either.

    Now before you say anything, let me just point out atht I am a born and raised country boy, not some townie.

    anyway...



    So why kill the fox? What's wrong with drag hunts?

    after all it's all about the chase, the ride and the social aspect...



    One is nature's intention, the other is human interference. Can you guess which is which?

    The weak die, that is nature. To kill for fun - something you do not deny - is simply inhumane, and more to the point unnecessary. As you say, the week will die naturally.



    and yet you claim that the anti-hunt lobby are more interested in class. Don't you think that we are aware that hunting isn't restricted to a specific class?

    I really couldn't care less if its Prince William or my next door neighbour, killing animal for fun is unacceptable.



    Basic biology dictates that we are omnivores. Regardless of your vitamin substitue argument, nature has intended that we eat both meat and vegetables.

    In most cases it simply boils down to a dislike of the upper class. Im not wrong on this its been pointed out on here with little remarks about their costumes and their expensive horses.

    Of course its natural when they die. When people are arguing that its more 'inhumane' than letting them die through starvation i felt i needed to call them out on this as it was contradictory.

    About the chase, i clearly said that it wasnt primarily about killing the fox, the thrill of the chase and social aspect is far more a pulling factor of hunting.

    Inhumane is a word i dont like when dealing with issues with animals. As ive already stated somewhere in this post 'Inhumane' is a derivitive from the word human, not animal.
    Maybe it is wrong to kill animals for fun but as i said in my first post, live and let live, if people enjoy it then let them do it.

    of course in basic biology, but biology has progressed we can buy our vitamins in a bottle. We were only programmed this way becuase we didnt have a choice when we were cavemen hunting with sticks. We now have choices after choices. We eat what we want because we simply enjoy it.

    This whole nature argument. Humans intervene in animals lives all the time. You see people in africa vaccinating lions, elephants. Rehoming animals. Taking species into captivity to save them from going extinct. Should we stop all this because we are interfering in nature? i really dont think we should. These schemes are beneficial.
    Now the killing for foxes for fun or not does benefit the fox population and strenth. Thats beneficial. Of course its sad that a fox has to die, no denying that. I just feel that the benefits of fox hunting far outweigh the negatives.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Skeeter Thompson
    In most cases it simply boils down to a dislike of the upper class. Im not wrong on this its been pointed out on here with little remarks about their costumes and their expensive horses.

    How does that equate to an attack on class then?
    Of course its natural when they die. When people are arguing that its more 'inhumane' than letting them die through starvation i felt i needed to call them out on this as it was contradictory.

    Let nature take its course - which may or may not result in death - or kill by chasing, and the ripping to shreds....

    Hmmmm...let me think about that one.
    About the chase, i clearly said that it wasnt primarily about killing the fox, the thrill of the chase and social aspect is far more a pulling factor of hunting.

    So again I ask, why chase a fox? Why not drag hunting?
    As ive already stated somewhere in this post 'Inhumane' is a derivitive from the word human, not animal.

    Possibly I used it because the act is carried out at the behest of humans, you work it out...
    Maybe it is wrong to kill animals for fun but as i said in my first post, live and let live, if people enjoy it then let them do it.

    So how far do you go with that premise? At what point should society say "This is not acceptable"?

    Death of an animal, death of a human, never?
    You see people in africa vaccinating lions, elephants. Rehoming animals.

    Don't you see a difference then?
    Now the killing for foxes for fun or not does benefit the fox population and strenth.

    How?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Skeeter Thompson

    This whole nature argument. Humans intervene in animals lives all the time. You see people in africa vaccinating lions, elephants. Rehoming animals. Taking species into captivity to save them from going extinct. Should we stop all this because we are interfering in nature? i really dont think we should. These schemes are beneficial.

    Skeeter there are clearly different purposes to human intervention into animals lives. Right, on the one hand we've got people going out of their way to keep species of animals from becoming exitinct by rehoming and aid work. On the other we have people chasing and killing animals for fun. The intentions of human intervention differs quite obviously between fox hunting and say vaccinations and rehoming programs and your attempts to try and blur the boundries simply don't wash.

    greenfields.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This analyising and breaking down of posts is really laborious and pedantic but ill play your games a bit longer. Im getting confused by you taking things out of context.
    It looks like you are confusing yourself too.
    quote:
    You see people in africa vaccinating lions, elephants. Rehoming animals.
    Don't you see a difference then?
    That makes no sense at all.
    A difference in what? :confused: how that is different to fox hunting?

    My statment above is challenging your idea of letting nature take its cause. You saying how humans shouldnt intervene in animals lifes and we should let nature take its course. Well im sure the above statment are examples humans intervening in animals lives for the better..... or do you think its for the worse because we are stepping into natures way. If you think its for the better then why even challenge my statement? some strange logic there. It would saying opposite things you believe in to prove a point.

    Of course making fun of their costumes and expensive horses is an attack on a class. Cmon dont play dumb. Its plain and clear.

    About whether things are acceptable or not. Well by law fox hunting is still legal. Why get so bothered by people having fun legally? Do you not want people to have fun? And at the moment the public is split about fox hunting.
    A death of a human is not acceptable in morals and in law. Cmon i shouldnt have to answer these thin arguments.

    If you eat meat then you are happiliy eating meat because you enjoy it. You are killing an animal for fun, not you personally but you know what i mean, just in case you want to pick up on that thin argument too.

    Look its usually a weak fox that will get chased and killed. If weak foxes are killed this would mean there are stronger foxes for breeding, this will mean their offspring will be stronger and more likely to survive.
    Also if fox population grows rapidly it needs to be controlled, firstly because there wouldnt be enough food for all the foxes, they would and do go into farms killing farmers produce. By controlling the population it would give other foxes a chance of getting more food and a better chance of survival.
    If we let nature take its course yes fox would die but over a long time and suffering. If we control them it minimises suffering and in turn strengthens the fox population. Also if they have enough food they dont have to go searching around built up areas where there are many dangers, dangers that have killed a lot of foxes already.

    Drag hunts , great...... dont forget its the farmers who invite these hunts on their land to kill foxes. The farmers primarily want the fox killed the hunters are there mainly for the chase and the social aspect.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Skeeter Thompson
    This analyising and breaking down of posts is really laborious and pedantic but ill play your games a bit longer. Im getting confused by you taking things out of context.
    It looks like you are confusing yourself too.

    Not at all, perhaps you just don't understand the issue. You certainly seem to trot out a lot of the old excuses.. ;)

    But I dissect your posts so that I can address each point you raise in turn, and ask you to clarify, or I'll debate the point with you...
    how that is different to fox hunting?

    Okay, I thought it was obvious, perhpas it isn't.

    In one example [lion etc] we are actively preventing the loss of a species. In the other [foxes] we are killing them for fun. Not population control, not becuase they are a "pest", but because some people like to kill foxes.

    Surely you can spot an important difference there...
    My statment above is challenging your idea of letting nature take its cause. You saying how humans shouldnt intervene in animals lifes and we should let nature take its course.

    But there is a difference. If we intervene to prevent a species becming extinct then I can understand that. If we kill an animal for fun then I can't.
    Of course making fun of their costumes and expensive horses is an attack on a class. Cmon dont play dumb. Its plain and clear.

    Okay, two main points here.

    Firstly, the people wearing those coats and riding those horses come from various "classes", Secondly, the the protesters are the same class - ie all classes are represented on both sides

    So please, explain how it is class related.
    About whether things are acceptable or not. Well by law fox hunting is still legal.

    Yep, it is still legal. Does that mean that I have to keep quiet and accept it. No.

    By speaking up you get laws changed. And this one will change soon...
    Why get so bothered by people having fun legally? Do you not want people to have fun?

    I don't object to them having fun. I object to them killing an animal inorder to have that fun. The cost is unacceptable.
    If you eat meat then you are happiliy eating meat because you enjoy it. You are killing an animal for fun, not you personally but you know what i mean, just in case you want to pick up on that thin argument too.

    Nice twist but fallible on one major point. I am an omnivore. You can pretend that vitamins are the same, but they aren't.
    Look its usually a weak fox that will get chased and killed. If weak foxes are killed this would mean there are stronger foxes for breeding, this will mean their offspring will be stronger and more likely to survive.

    Okay, accepting all of this, and the rest you wrote on this position, let me ask you a simple question.

    If hunting is an effctive method of ensuring the survival of a species, why don't we practice this method on any other animal?
    Drag hunts , great...... dont forget its the farmers who invite these hunts on their land to kill foxes. The farmers primarily want the fox killed the hunters are there mainly for the chase and the social aspect.

    So why do the hunters do it? If they don't want the kill, why even get involved?

    BTW If you read my earlier post, you'd have noted that more foxes are being killed now that hunting with dogs is banned in Scotland. This proves that if you want an effective method of pest control, the dogs option is less effective.

    So what other excuse is there for chasing an animal across acres of ground, before allowing your dogs to finally rip it apart?

    If the hunters do this for the chase, why go for the kill? If the famrer wants population control, why go for the least effective method?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i dont think i have anymore to add after this post, i simply cant be bothered to keep outlining my points to you and then you taking bits out of context and then try relating them to a completely different point to what my statement was for. We are going round in circles.

    In my last post.
    I said How is it different to fox hunting? this was a question to you to see if its that what you meant. It was not as you misunderstood, me saying that i dont think its different. Its ok i forgive you.

    lol if you eat meat your a hypocrite simple, you just support animal rights when it suits you. I know vitamins aren't the same but if you felt that strongly about it you wouldnt eat meat. Kinda selfish, meat is better than vitamins so you choose meat over vitamins because they are nicer, better and more beneficial to you. There isnt anything wrong with that. Against fox hunting but you eat meat hmmm doesnt sit well with me........... There is more fear in a slaughterhouse and more trauma than there ever is on a fox hunt.

    Does there need to be an excuse to chase a fox and kill it? if its legal there doesnt need to be an excuse.

    It is a thing to do with classes mostly. Im standing by this, ive heard the upper class derogotery (sp?) comments in the fox hunting discussions too many times for it not to be an issue because its perceived as an upper class thing. I even said that fox hunters come from all classes, if you had read my other posts without blinkers on you wouldn't of felt the need to tell me this.

    Upper class protestors are usually young upper class people rebelling against their up bringing.

    Farmers see this as the most effective way as it doesnt waste of of their time that would be spent on waiting for a fox and then shooting it.
    Hunters do it because its fun, ive never said they dont like the kill, its an end result a goal but i think its way down on their list for actually going on hunts.

    Ok if more are now killed because its been banned why do you want it banned. Ok it may go against your morals but if you dont want animals killed then i cant see that logic.

    Your little comment about it being a twist, ive said that in about my last 3 posts, so i wasnt bringing anything new to the discussion.

    Also on one hand you dont want human intervention for animals but on the other hand you do. Make your mind up.

    Ive got nothing else to add, ive said everything i want to, some things about 4 times now and you are still arguing the same points, its quite boring. Read my earlier posts to see how i feel on the subject.

    I eat meat because I love it, I dont mind people fox hunting. Ok animals have to die but thats life its never going to stop might as well stop.
    We are a part of nature, killing animals is part of our nature.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think you're right to quit the discussion. You're never going to convince me that it is acceptable, an vice versa.

    You also seem to be under the impression that my position is due to "animal rights", but that isn't the case. In most cases I don't care about this issue, as you say I am a meat eater. WHat I object to is the needless chase and barbaric slaughter of foxes for fun. There is no other valid reason - as eveidence shows. It doesn't do anything to sustain a population, nor control one. It is all about a group of people getting their jollies from torturing animals.

    If you think that is acceptable, then I am saddened.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Skeeter Thompson


    No need to make yourself look even more foolish with ridiculous statements like that. Its just petty, come up with reasoned points which require more than 2 minutes of thought then i might take you seriously.

    Answer to your question. Nope not ok there are rules about cruelty to domestic animals kept as pets.

    You missed my point completely. Farmers let hunts on their land as a pest control or population control. It also keeps the fox population strong.

    The people who go on the hunts do it because they enjoy themselves not because they care about the fox population or pest control.

    I don't need to think about it because you are being so blatantly hypocritical........

    you say that if people enjoy doing this thing to animals then it is probably ok, live and let live.........

    So whats wrong with my cheese grater?

    Is it just that cats might be pets?

    What if they are strays, and they are sedated when I do it so they don't feel anything?
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