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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by dirty_harry:
    And as for dissable babies and people, those which have no ability or intelligence should be put down. You may all have a go at me for being sick but these hospitals that hold all of them are a waste of gov. cash. Those that do have intelligence...yeah, they should be looked after but I seen some of them on a rather gross TV program just in staight jackets drooling and gargling and they have no relatives in life. It was all about how they need help from people but it just shows all these people who have massive brain disease dont really have meaning in life. I feel they should be put out of their misery and allowed to start a new life through reincarnation if it exists.

    I find your post to be extremely distasteful.

    However, of course you are welcome to your view, though in my professional opinion, you are making ill judged and prejudiced remarks. I have worked in psychiatry for 17 years - As a Charge Nurse, and Nursing Home Group senior manager. So unlike you I know what I am talking about. Plus the fact as a disabled person, I feel a personal grievance.

    If you are basing an argument around information taken from a TV programme, which really shows you haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

    I have noticed on several postings about drugs, you have told people to F**K OFF, when they appear not to know what they are talking about. You are quick to criticize them, hopefully you will accept this criticism with good grace.

    You state that providing disabled people do not have intelligence or ability they should be put down. How would you decide the cut-off point with intelligence and ability? where would you draw the line?

    I have dedicated the whole of my working life to caring for people with severe mental health problems - particularly dementia (a massive brain disease (to use your words), which usually affects older people).

    I have nursed numerous professional people, such as retired bank managers, doctors and one particular gentleman who before he retired was the managing director of one of the UK's largest companies. Nearly all these people could tell me in detail about their past private and professional lives (as their long term memory was perfect), but they did not have a clue what day it was. I have seen severely demented women bake cakes, make bread (surely an ability?), but are unable to tell what year it is. I have heard people with dementia recall the sonnets of William Shakespeare (surely showing intelligence?), but were incontinent of faeces.

    So how do you know people who have "brain disease" don't have a meaning in life? Depending on the care they receive, it can be very much the case. By the way, I do not understand your logic that because “they” receive help, they have no meaning in life. Being disabled my wife has to help me, does that mean I have no meaning to my life, and should I be put down?

    You mention about the cost to the government.

    Many of the people with dementia have worked their entire lives, paying taxes and National Insurance Contributions which started the NHS in the first place!

    So why the hell should they not be entitled to some of the money back in the form of hospital/nursing home care, now they need it, they have bloody well paid for it.

    A society should be judged by the care it gives those who are unable to care for themselves. What you are advocating is obscene.

    Adolf Hitler actually had the same view as you concerning disabled babies and adults, he had them "put down". Are you sure you mean what you say?

    You said that that government cash should not be used to fund hospitals for the care of disabled, as it is a waste (for the sake of the argument I will ignore the fact that the majority of care is now within the community),

    On various postings on the drugs site, you have stated you have been addicted to heroin and speed. How much cash is used in the treatment of addicts in rehab, care in accident and emergency after overdose, drug awareness programmes, etc?

    I am sure you would be offended if I said, don't bother treating an addict who has o/d, because they are likely to do it again, and it’s a waste of money!

    Incidentally in all my time in nursing I have never seen a straightjacket, this includes time spent at Rampton secure unit, or have met anyone who within the past 30 years has seen one either.

    [This message has been edited by derby county (edited 07-09-2000).]
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I thought I would be misunderstood. I am merely saying that it is wrong to keep some of those in pain alive. I really think you are an intelligent person and meant no offence to you. Its just that some of these people are in pain and they dont have their own say and they suffer from hideous conditions and brain diseases. i just feel we should let them go and if they will start life again, lets hope they are more fortunate. I suppose your right. I don't really know what the hell im talking about, but I might read up a little as compared to you i am probably dumb. Im sorry if I offended anyone, I just put it across the wrong way, sorry derby if I upset you, I think you are a real asset to this board and think perhaps you could even get a job here (seriously), ask dom for recruitment info.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hi Harry,
    On reflection I think I over-reacted to your post, so I would like to say sorry -

    I also think your comments about euthanasia
    are also very valid. Perhaps we should start a thread about it, to see what other people think. Especially in light of the emotive case of the siamese twins.

    best wishes derby
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by j9j9:

    One of the reasons you are allowed to have an abortion is that it would seriously damage your mental health, well it sounds like that if you ever got pregnant this woud definately be a consideration on your part.

    Hello, I'm from the United States and have
    been observing this very interesting
    board discussion. You may not be aware, but abortion is an extremely controversial subject in my country where, unfortunately, we have a Supreme Court decision called Roe V. Wade which mandates that abortion be available to every woman for any reason and at any stage of pregnancy. The reason I'm replying to your post is because I believe it's important for Brits to know that the law in Great Britain is very similar to the
    extremely pro-abortion law in my country. The mental health reason that you cite as
    being an acceptable excuse for an abortion is, in reality, used to justify abortion for *any* reason.

    The Abortion Act of 1967 passed by the British Parliament was a deceptive effort to effectively legalize abortion on demand without actually portraying the act as such.
    It created a set of medical criteria that a woman would have to meet in order to obtain an abortion. Her life, physical health, or
    mental health would have to be in jeopardy and she would require the signatures of two physicians attesting to the fact. The doctors would have full and total say as to
    whether or not the woman was qualified under
    the law to receive an abortion. What happened, of course, and what now prevails in Britain is that women can simply go to an abortion clinic, perhaps the Marie Stopes clinic which recently announced it's intention to provide "lunchtime abortions" for women on the go, and claim that she will get depressed if she has the baby. She is then promptly certified by the two physicians who are always present (both of them abortionists who will profit from the abortion), and the abortion is carried out on demand.

    The reason I follow British abortion law is because this same tactic of deceit was used by the United States Supreme Court in the afore mentioned Roe decision of 1973. In America, the court system has the power to invalidate laws passed by the legislature if the court deems the law to be unconstitutional. This is an unfortunate consequence of the flawed framing of our written constitution, which was plagued by an anti-monarchical paranoia that predominated among American leaders after the split from your fine country. With this
    tremendous judicial power, as too often occurs, also came tremendous corruption. The court decided in the Roe case that it wanted to grant women an inviolable right to abortion for any reason at any stage, even though the Constitution said not a word about the matter. It knew, however, that the American people would not likely tolerate abortion on demand in the later stages of pregnancy and might reverse the court with a constitutional amendment, which is the people's only recourse in such circumstances.

    So it cleverly devised a scheme modeled on the British Abortion Act which allowed abortion to be banned in late
    pregnancy as long as the law contained a so-called "health exception" that would allow
    a late abortion to be performed if a woman's, you guessed it, physical or mental health were at risk. The abortionist would be the only doctor required to qualify a woman for this exception. The result, of course, is that in the United States, a late abortion, which includes the live dismemberment of the child in utero, may be obtained for any reason regardless of how pregnant a woman is. And don't be fooled, in Britain it is no different.

    I truly hope that those of you in Britain who care about the unborn do not allow yourselves to be deceived by amoral politicians who seek to take advantage of the
    people's trust. I would encourage you to pressure your MPs and see that those who are most vulnerable are in some way protected from the greedy and callous abortion industry. Perhaps, one day, we'll see an end
    to this senseless shedding of innocent blood.

    If I haven't bored you to death yet, thanks for hearing me out.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thanx front, that wasn't boring at all, very informative <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"&gt;
    From a personal point of view, I guess I lean towards a pro-abortion mentality, although I do disagree with it [if that makes any sense at all!]
    I thought about this for a long time, and all of the situations a woman wanting abortion may be in [age, marital/emotional/financial status, etc] but I guess there is one leading problem [in my mind] as far as abortion is concerned. It's a very small minority of well-off, married women who have abortions. It tends to be the desperate ones.

    Most of my family are from Ireland, and although I'm not a strict Catholic [like them] and have been brought up in England, I do believe that it's wrong. Not a 'sin' though. There are many cases [just look at the whole teenage pregnancy issue] in which an abortion would be the right choice. As I know only too well, a child is better off just being there at all.

    In Ireland's case, religion appears to over-rule common sense. It's always been drilled into me that sex before marriage, contraception, illegitamate babies and of course, abortion are the type of 'sins' a girl would burn in hell for. Which is bullshit. Abortion IS wrong, but for as long as sex is a taboo subject and teenagers [speaking from a purely personal point of view] can't approach their parents about the Pill or condoms, then the more likely they are to find themselves up the duff with only one option left.

    It's cruel, but it's needed. Lives are better off all round in most cases.

    *|* Chica *|*

    Stay Calm <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/mad.gif"&gt;
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I understand what you are saying front. All the woman over here has to say is " I really couldn't cope" and Bobs-you're-uncle.

    I don't think that many people over here know about the live, in utero, dismemberment in late termination. I saw a program about it once, which I had to turn off. It left me extremely disturbed and obviously led to my views on abortion.

    I think that they should explain the mechanics of every stage of abortion in school, alongside sex education. I wonder how many women who have late term abortions have exactly what happens explained to them.

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Abortion is a very controversial subject. Many believe that it is fine to take the life away from an unborn child,but I don't. Noone has the right to take the life away from another human being whether they are unborn or not. At present abortions can be carried out until the 24th week of pregnancy. Babies which are born at this stage can survive and therefore they should bring the abortion limit back considerably. I am quite a strong anti-abortionist but I do believe that if the mother of the unborn child is in any danger that only then should the child be killed. There are many other possibilities than the abortion choice. Many couples are unable to have children and could easily adopt the child . Abortion is an awful choice involving the murder of an innocent human being.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Exactly. But its like I was saying b4, if a woman that is so selfish that she would kill her own child because having a baby doesn't suit her then how could anyone persuade her to continue the pregnancy and go through the pain of childbirth, etc so she could give the baby to someone else?

    There are plenty of childless couples wanting to adopt babies but you cannot explain this to a selfish person when all they care about is their own welfare.

    During this discussion I have tried to be sympathetic towards women with unwanted pregnancies but the more and more I come back to this discussion it sickens my stomach.

    When I was pregnant I was obsessed with looking at pictures in parenting magazines so I could get an idea of what my baby looked like at every stage. I cannot believe that terminations r available so late in the pregnancy when on my daughter's 19 week scan she looked like a perfect little human being moving around in my womb.

    I just don't understand it. How can a society that is sickened by children being murdered allow this to happen?

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If abortion was made a crime thousands of women would still risk their lives and health in back-street clinics. We should respect the choice of the woman if she does not want the child.

    " Humanists regard abortion as better than bringing unwanted babies into the world."
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes I absolutely agree with you J9, about the lack of knowledge contributing to abortion. What really gets to me is that if every woman were required to see a sonagram image of her unborn baby and listen to it's heartbeat before going through with the abortion, we could wipe out 80% of abortion demand. A mother seeing and hearing her unborn baby, even early in pregnancy, would make her realize that it is a real child and that it is HER child. Most women would never knowingly kill their own children. After all, the maternal instinct is to protect the child, not to destroy it.

    But, at least in America, we can't even enact this simple and inoffensive regulation because the court immediately rules that it violates the Constitution, which as I said before, makes no mention of abortion. In recent years, under growing pressure from the public, the court has allowed *some* degree of regulation on abortion, although it ultimately is rendered meaningless because the court requires that abortionists themselves provide the fetal development information to the women. And of course we know how enthusiatic they are about convincing a woman not to abort. To this day, though, there has not been one law requiring a pre-abortion ultrasound that has not been struck down by our imperial court

    The fact is that the "pro-choice" movement in my country is not that at all, it is pro-ABORTION. They actually believe that abortion should be used for utilitarian social reasons and they want to promote and encourage it the best they can for this purpose. To do this they must promote ignorance of fetal development and of barbarous abortion procedures among the general public, but particularly among young women for obvious reasons. That is why they oppose even the most modest of regulations that could reduce abortions by simply informing and educating. They are extremely powerful but we will continue to fight them and we will ultimately win because we have the truth. If it is not true that butchering a child is evil, then there is no truth.

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    Firstly I will say it is completely up to the parents to decide.

    I personally do not agree with abortion. I am a christian, I believe that life should always be given a chance. Christianity forbids abortion, amongst other things.

    I agree that adequete contraception should be used if a child is not wanted. However, as Gwai says, if you dont want a child, and you use contraception, you should still be aware of the responsibilities of caring for a child.

    Beetle wings may "hate" children, and may never want them, but Gwai's reply pretty much sums that up. Go and get sterilised! It is ok to express your opinion on these boards, that what they are for, but for each opion there is an arguement.

    I am not saying to anyone, "dont get an abortion". I am simply saying that you should consider strongly what it is that you are doing, and that abortion should be a last option, if the child is not wanted. Again, as Gwai said there is always adoption?

    The whole process of giving birth, is for the simple reason of the survival of the human species. If abortion started to dominate, then the population of humans would slowly decrease, unless science came up with a superb process in which to keep the population constant without actualy having to give birth. Or that god performed a miracle!
    So as you can see I am against abortion, but not other peoples decision's to have an abortion, as long as they have thouroughly thought about it!

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    my mate found out she was pg (this was months ago), she decided to have it aborted, and so went out gettin pissed and smoking weed etc, then the day b 4 the abortion she decided she didnt want an abortion, as the realisation set in as her bump had begun to emerge, but unfortunately, when she went 4 a scan it was found that the baby had died due to the 'torture'it must of gone through inside due to the alcohol, drugs etc.
    pregnancy obviously throw around loads of emotion, abortion is a huge decision to make, and i feel that if thats the decision some1 feels would b 4 the best then thats up to them, they would need all the support they could get, wether or not u agreed, its their life.
    love helly
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think abortion is a personal oppinion and no one person can say whether its right or wrong because at the end of the day its a persons choice. I am 18 and pregnant and definatly considered abortion as an option when I first found out. I am going ahead with the pregnancy despite being on my own and soon to be living in a hostel. I am not sure if this is better for the child than if I had gone ahead with an abortion. But I do no that I dont think I could have handles having an abortion done. I think in the long term it would have fucked with my head (maybe to the point of me completly loosing it) far more than having a baby will. I am exited and glad that I am having a baby. However I have nothing against abortion, if it is wat the person wants. I know a few girls who have had them and dont regret it at all, one of which got pregnant through rape and I can totally understand the abortion there. Hope U enjoyed ready my veiws on this subject.
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