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Scottish Independence - Yes or No?

**helen****helen** Mod malarkistPosts: 9,235 Listening Ear
Whether you'll actually be voting or just have an active interest, which way do you swing?

Here's some reasons why some people will be voting no.

Here's some reasons why some people will be voting yes.

Do any of these ring true for you?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think its lod of shit tbh just like voting for the emps think its wrong tbh
  • **helen****helen** Mod malarkist Posts: 9,235 Listening Ear
    *Heather* wrote: »
    I think its lod of shit tbh just like voting for the emps think its wrong tbh

    thanks for your reply Heather :) What do you think is wrong about it?
  • BubblesGoesBooBubblesGoesBoo Sunny ScotlandPosts: 3,589 Community Veteran
    ohh i could go on with this :P I'm voting yes, for a fairer society and a stronger country, and to reduce child poverty in scotland... and bring back benefits for the elderly
    ' So I put a bullet where I shouda put a helmet, and I crash my car cause I wanna get carried away, that's why I'm standing on the overpass screaming at myself 'hey, I wanna get better''  
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    I admit not to have read as much about it as I would if I were voting, but from what I know there seem to be lots of promises made by supporting politicians that are nothing more than promises.

    They'll get in the EU easily, they won't be in the Schengen area, they'll be in the Common Travel Area, they'll keep the currency... None of these things is entirely up to them, I've not seen any people actually able to make these decisions say anything about them, and yet people seem certain enough to bet everything on it. If I were voting I'd need something more "solid" before making such a decision.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well I've voted.

    Having finally defeated the intelligence test that is the postal voting system. I really can't think of any good reasons to leave, and find it very concerning that plenty of very well meaning people are going to vote yes because they take what they're being told in good faith.

    The coverage and discussion it's getting is mind blowing, not sure what it's like outside of Scotland but the level of engagement is a whole new scale compared to an election.

    Anyone seen the BBC comedy Yes No show? It's got some of the best comment on the whole thing that I've seen.
  • JamesJames Posts: 1,706 Community Manager
    They'll get in the EU easily, they won't be in the Schengen area, they'll be in the Common Travel Area, they'll keep the currency... None of these things is entirely up to them, I've not seen any people actually able to make these decisions say anything about them, and yet people seem certain enough to bet everything on it. If I were voting I'd need something more "solid" before making such a decision.

    As an interesting follow-on point: I've had discussions with a few Spanish friends who say that Spain would probably do everything in it's power to stop an independent Scotland from joining the EU. They're worried that that if Scotland does go independent and join the EU, the separatists in Catalonia will fight for the same thing!
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,180 Skive's The Limit
    If they want to go it alone it's up to them. I personally think it would be a shame though.

    I can't understand how they would be properly independent whilst keeping the pound though? I'm inclined to think that if they should vote Yes then they should do it properly.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • **helen****helen** Mod malarkist Posts: 9,235 Listening Ear

    The coverage and discussion it's getting is mind blowing, not sure what it's like outside of Scotland but the level of engagement is a whole new scale compared to an election.

    Agreed! Maybe we need more referendums? ;)
  • **helen****helen** Mod malarkist Posts: 9,235 Listening Ear
    ohh i could go on with this :P I'm voting yes, for a fairer society and a stronger country, and to reduce child poverty in scotland... and bring back benefits for the elderly

    Would love to hear more from you on this Bubbles :)
  • **helen****helen** Mod malarkist Posts: 9,235 Listening Ear
    Any scots voting no?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    **helen** wrote: »
    thanks for your reply Heather :) What do you think is wrong about it?
    To help our lovley helen :) if some people dont know wheres a link

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29231440

    They get more money and then us

    I was speakinf to my next door nabour kids they doing it in school
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    They want the best of both worlds, to not be part of the UK but still enjoy the benefits of a currency union with one of the most economically powerful nations on Earth.

    You mean the economy that is relying on Scottish oil to stop it's account deficit from spiralling out of control? The one where Sterling might crater without a currency union?
    *Heather* wrote: »
    They get more money and then us

    We pay £1,700 per head more in tax than the rest of the UK. So no, we don't get more money.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Infinite. wrote: »
    You mean the economy that is relying on Scottish oil to stop it's account deficit from spiralling out of control? The one where Sterling might crater without a currency union?



    We pay £1,700 per head more in tax than the rest of the UK. So no, we don't get more money.

    I put them not us
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,180 Skive's The Limit
    Infinite. wrote: »
    You mean the economy that is relying on Scottish oil to stop it's account deficit from spiralling out of control? The one where Sterling might crater without a currency union?

    Oil is a finite commodity. And I'd like to see proof that it is currently the only thing preventing 'our account deficit spiralling out of control'.

    I can't understand how Scotland would be truly independent from the UK if it couldn't make monetary decisions and matters of interest and tax, without involving Westminster.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • **helen****helen** Mod malarkist Posts: 9,235 Listening Ear
    *Heather* wrote: »
    I put them not us

    Infinite is in Scotland, so he's saying they don't get more money. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    Oil is a finite commodity. And I'd like to see proof that it is currently the only thing preventing 'our account deficit spiralling out of control'.

    If you have a look at the second link, it quotes Societe Generale's strategist Albert Edwards, who had his analysts study the Account Deficit. It's already at 4.4%, which is high for a country like the UK. If you remove oil exports, it rises to 8.5%, which is high enough to spook investors, resulting in the currency starting to tank.

    UK borrowing is second only to America. Thus I question the UK, particularly after a Yes vote, being economically powerful.
    Skive wrote: »
    I can't understand how Scotland would be truly independent from the UK if it couldn't make monetary decisions and matters of interest and tax, without involving Westminster.

    That's because it's not true independence. True independence would need a new Scottish currency. That's why I can't vote Yes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would suggest that everyone read The Wee Blue Book

    It was created by Yes supporters but it's still an excellent piece of highly sourced information.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,180 Skive's The Limit
    Infinite. wrote: »
    If you have a look at the second link, it quotes Societe Generale's strategist Albert Edwards, who had his analysts study the Account Deficit. It's already at 4.4%, which is high for a country like the UK. If you remove oil exports, it rises to 8.5%, which is high enough to spook investors, resulting in the currency starting to tank.

    I've seen other economists state a similar effect but to a much lesser degree. I don't disagree that economically it will hurt, but it's not just what's left of the UK that will hurt, Scotland will too. There are questions about big business relocating to what's left of the UK and the sharing of the national debt.

    What's going to hurt most is the uncertainty of these things. Investors don't like uncertainty and until all this is worked out (which may take a couple of years), uncertainty will remain and Scotland and whats left of the UK may suffer together.
    Infinite. wrote: »
    That's because it's not true independence. True independence would need a new Scottish currency. That's why I can't vote Yes.

    Exactly. I have no problem with the Scots voting on their independence, that's their business and their right, but it should be for complete independence. If it's just for a change to the Union then circumstances will change for everybody in that Union and it's no longer just a question for Scotland but for eveyrbody.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    I've seen other economists state a similar effect but to a much lesser degree. I don't disagree that economically it will hurt, but it's not just what's left of the UK that will hurt, Scotland will too. There are questions about big business relocating to what's left of the UK and the sharing of the national debt.

    There's no alternative to using the pound. There's no plans for a Scottish currency, there's no way to join the Euro. Anything that affects Sterling hits Scotland regardless of whether it is part of the union or not. What irks me, and I bring this on myself by reading them, are the articles about how the rest of the UK will magically become more prosperous because those parasitical Scots have gone. Or the polls where 63% of the English and Welsh are against a currency union. There's a chronic misunderstanding about the state of the UK's economy.

    The big businesses, your RBS, Lloyds, Standard Life, are shifting their head offices and not a lot else. For now. Ironically, if the banks are headquartered in the rUK, the become less of a burden to Scotland because we'd not have to worry about bailing them out. Businesses that move are either going to London or they are leaving the UK. That helps London, not the UK. And one of the first things an Independent Scotland does is drop corporation tax. Which leads to the rUK dropping corporation tax and we begin a race to the bottom. One of the fascinating things about this referendum is how little impact 'Big Business' has had. When I speak to people on both sides, they immediately frame it as standing up to bullies. The run on the banks in 2008, the bailout, and the lack of contrition has generated such mistrust that even genuine expert advice, like stuff about the current account deficit, falls on deaf ears.

    This is all super boring numbers stuff. Scotland will be fine. The UK will be fine. It'll be hard going but it always is. This referendum has, I hope, irreparably changed British politics. It has certainly damaged Scottish Labour.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,180 Skive's The Limit
    Infinite. wrote: »
    What irks me, and I bring this on myself by reading them, are the articles about how the rest of the UK will magically become more prosperous because those parasitical Scots have gone.

    That's not been my experience. I think most people south of the border would prefer to keep the Union.

    I do understand those in England and Wales not being happy about automatically being involved in a currency Union. What irks me is the Scots who say that this is a Scottish issue only. I agree that If the people of Scotland want full independence and separation that's their right alone, if however what they want still involves being part of a Union then everybody within that Union should have a say.

    You don't get a divorce from your partner and expect to pick and choose what you want from the marriage home without you're partner having a say? And you wouldn't expect to be able to carry on using the items that have gone to your partner following the divorce without your partners agreement. Simple analogy but it works.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • charliwantscakecharliwantscake Cool Newbie Posts: 24
    Nonono! I do not like change! And I don't know how it will effect me as I am English and only recently moved to Scotland. And do you think we will need passports or something to visit England now? I can't afford a passport! :'( xD!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My law teacher obviously takes this very seriously because he said "if the majority vote no, we'll have a pretty boring flag". Nice that he's got his priorities right haha

    Sent by Sony Xperia
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Whowhere wrote: »
    The results in so far, look like the UK will be together for another few hundred years!
    And Scotland will be apart... Lots, lots of fanatics on both sides.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm really happy with the result :)
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,180 Skive's The Limit
    Lots, lots of fanatics on both sides.

    Passionate people but not fanatics. There's been a huge turn out with no violence, and the result will probably instigate a change for the better throughout the UK. This has been a bit of triumph of democracy which ever side of the argument you were on.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • **helen****helen** Mod malarkist Posts: 9,235 Listening Ear
    Skive wrote: »
    Passionate people but not fanatics. There's been a huge turn out with no violence, and the result will probably instigate a change for the better throughout the UK. This has been a bit of triumph of democracy which ever side of the argument you were on.

    I actually can't quite believe it's 85%, more of that please! :)
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Skive wrote: »
    Passionate people but not fanatics.
    I do hope that's the case. I've heard (anecdotal) stories of "yes" voters telling "no" voters that they're traitors.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,180 Skive's The Limit
    I do hope that's the case. I've heard (anecdotal) stories of "yes" voters telling "no" voters that they're traitors.

    I'm sure that is the case, people are passionate about this issue which can only be a good thing. There has been and will continue to be seriously heated arguments about this, swearing, some name calling, but as of yet there has been no public violence to speak of.
    By an large the Yes campaign has accepted the defeat.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I take no joy in No winning.

    I walked past a wee shop that Yes campaigners had rented. You could go in and get a badge. Or a flag. Or a mug. It's got grates on the windows now. The stickers and leaflets are still in the windows but the place is empty now. I've not seen grass roots campaigning like it.

    This is not a victory for Better Together. This was a victory for Project Fear.

    Your food will get more expensive, say multinational corporations after they get invited to Downing Street.

    We'll move our business elsewhere, say banks that brought about the financial collapse and are partly owned by the tax payer.

    You can't use the pound, says the chancellor of the exchequer who is relying on Scottish oil to keep the pound stable as he borrows more and more money.

    Scotland will get new powers, say the three major parties. Now, not even twelve hours later, it has descended back into party political bickering and the timetable we were promised has been torn up.

    With all this, the Yes vote only lost by 10%.

    This is far too fucking raw for me just now and I've spent the last two years talking about little else, so I think I'm done talking about the referendum.
  • **helen****helen** Mod malarkist Posts: 9,235 Listening Ear
    Infinite. wrote: »

    This is far too fucking raw for me just now and I've spent the last two years talking about little else, so I think I'm done talking about the referendum.

    :( I don't really have any words - just want to acknowledge this as it sounds pretty damn gut wrenching. Really appreciate all your posts on this, the mainstream media did a pretty good job of promoting a one sided story.
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