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Mandela

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
It seems that Nelson Mandela has finally passed away.

A very interesting and yet polarising (to many) individual.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Such an amazing and inspirational man, RIP.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Deeply sad, but his legacy is extraordinary.
  • AuroraAurora Part of the furniture Posts: 11,720 An Original Mixlorian
    Mandela could be like Sherlock and we would never know, #MandelaLives ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There are not many people who lived to see the lasting change they worked to hard for.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    His greatest achievement was to come out of years of confinement and to be completely reconciliatory towards White South Africans.

    "True reconciliation does not consist in merely forgetting the past. Reconciliation means working together to correct the legacy of past injustice.”

    Unfortunately, this legacy is being dismantled by the current ANC government with populist rhetoric.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rip
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ye something to 7 this morning he died

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25252626
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    He died yesterday evening at 7pm.
  • AuroraAurora Part of the furniture Posts: 11,720 An Original Mixlorian
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    He died yesterday evening at 7pm.

    It's strange, but I don't think his death mattered as much to the youth, just the older generation, because even though we have a picture of him in the Fec, were still clueless as to what he did, other than being President, and maybe being put in Prison, and speaking up? :P But the news holds on this shit for so long. Did his funeral go Live or something? Should it have mattered?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's interesting that so many young people in the UK were effectively dancing on thatchers grave when she died. Especially when most were not born at the time. Then Mandela seems to be all but forgotten.

    I think that on a very simplistic level, he really didn't do anything more than be in prison and speak up about things, oh and be President. Though it was much more than that, he was key in ending apartheid in South Africa.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    It's interesting that so many young people in the UK were effectively dancing on thatchers grave when she died. Especially when most were not born at the time. Then Mandela seems to be all but forgotten.

    It would surprise you how much people of my age actually do know about Thatcher. Lets not forget the fact that she and the Tories didn't want Mandela out of prison. I find it disgusting how Cameron and his government are rallying round pretending they care.

    "The youth" know a lot about Mandela too, we had an assembly at college after he died (voluntary attendance) and it was so busy they ended up repeating it. As a member of the student union I can say we've been putting up quotes around college, and it has had a very good reception from students. Some of us do care about politics, believe it or not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    It's interesting that so many young people in the UK were effectively dancing on thatchers grave when she died. Especially when most were not born at the time. Then Mandela seems to be all but forgotten.

    I think that on a very simplistic level, he really didn't do anything more than be in prison and speak up about things, oh and be President. Though it was much more than that, he was key in ending apartheid in South Africa.

    I think it's because we generally remember people more for the bad things they've done, rather than the good things.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It would surprise you how much people of my age actually do know about Thatcher. Lets not forget the fact that she and the Tories didn't want Mandela out of prison. I find it disgusting how Cameron and his government are rallying round pretending they care.

    "The youth" know a lot about Mandela too, we had an assembly at college after he died (voluntary attendance) and it was so busy they ended up repeating it. As a member of the student union I can say we've been putting up quotes around college, and it has had a very good reception from students. Some of us do care about politics, believe it or not.

    Might want to have a look at this:
    http://order-order.com/2013/12/07/when-maggie-told-botha-to-free-nelson-mandela/
    The myth that Thatcher (and her admirers) supported apartheid is one of the core beliefs of the Comrade Blimpish left. Charles Moore touched on it in The Telegraph this morning. It is a false charge and Nelson Mandela himself was in no doubt ? saying of Margaret Thatcher in July 1990 only a few months after his release: ?She is an enemy of apartheid? We have much to thank her for.?

    Mandela knew that for years behind the scenes she had been arguing with the South African apartheid regime for his release. Written evidence of her lobbying only came to light decades later when the ANC government released a now declassified secret 1985 letter from Margaret Thatcher to P. W. Botha. Comrade Blimp-types just won?t accept the fact that she did more to encourage the end of apartheid than Paul Weller and Billy Bragg. They?re wrong.

    Also, why is it that only the opposition and not the government have some kind of right to act like they care?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can't stand Thatcher, there is nothing I could read about her that would possibly change my mind. Scum of the earth in my opinion.

    Everyone has a right to care, but we must question who actually cares, and who is playing it up for the camera.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can't stand Thatcher, there is nothing I could read about her that would possibly change my mind. Scum of the earth in my opinion.

    Everyone has a right to care, but we must question who actually cares, and who is playing it up for the camera.

    As you correctly mention the whole questioning who is playing it up to the camera and who isnt. Though I think its also worth looking at the media in this case, and the almost expectation that some people have to play it up to the cameras or they get attacked.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    As you correctly mention the whole questioning who is playing it up to the camera and who isnt. Though I think its also worth looking at the media in this case, and the almost expectation that some people have to play it up to the cameras or they get attacked.

    This is true, all over twitter big company accounts were posting memorials to Mandela seemingly just because everyone else was. I think it's quite sad that media forces public memorial upon people, some may not be interested and some may not want to remember in such a public way.
  • Annaarrr!!Annaarrr!! Noob Posts: 876
    I find it disgusting how Cameron and his government are rallying round pretending they care.

    How on earth do you know if they care or not? Oh wait, you don't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Annaarrr!! wrote: »
    How on earth do you know if they care or not? Oh wait, you don't.

    I can understand where she is coming from with her points about Thatcher, but I do sense a certain element of if you say something enough times then you begin to believe it.
  • Annaarrr!!Annaarrr!! Noob Posts: 876
    True say
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    I can understand where she is coming from with her points about Thatcher, but I do sense a certain element of if you say something enough times then you begin to believe it.

    I have no time for Tories, and I doubt I ever will. David Cameron is never going to be someone I like, and the more I study politics the more I see my left-wing support increasing.
    I highly doubt that ALL the world dignitaries in attendance of the memorial service really "cared" especially from places like the UK where the effect wont be felt as much as in the African nations.
  • Annaarrr!!Annaarrr!! Noob Posts: 876
    That's just as bad as having no time for all people of a certain religious group. Its ridiculous that you'd be so narrow minded as to decide you dislike everyone in a particular group simply because you've heard about bad things they've done.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have no time for Tories, and I doubt I ever will. David Cameron is never going to be someone I like, and the more I study politics the more I see my left-wing support increasing.
    I highly doubt that ALL the world dignitaries in attendance of the memorial service really "cared" especially from places like the UK where the effect wont be felt as much as in the African nations.

    The problem with left wing politics, is that eventually you run out of everyone elses money.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Annaarrr!! wrote: »
    That's just as bad as having no time for all people of a certain religious group. Its ridiculous that you'd be so narrow minded as to decide you dislike everyone in a particular group simply because you've heard about bad things they've done.

    I don't have a problem with every single right wing supporter, I've been out with a Nazi supporter for christ sake that's about as right as you can get. He was a lovely guy, just some very stupid ideas when you spoke about politics.
    I disagree with their political ideologies, just like I disagree with a lot of religious ideologies. I will never agree with the Tories, just like you will probably never agree with my left wing ideologies. Nothing wrong with disagreement, makes politics more interesting ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    The problem with left wing politics, is that eventually you run out of everyone elses money.

    The problem with middle/right wing politics is the poor become poorer, and the rich become richer.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The problem with middle/right wing politics is the poor become poorer, and the rich become richer.

    I will ensure to ask the Chancellor to lower the tax threshold again then.

    Also, I'm not sure if you're missing a trick here, but the champagne socialists seem to do a very good job of getting richer and having no interest in people having aspiration to get wealthier, otherwise they lose their support base.

    I think there is a reason that increasing numbers of people are finding themselves identifying towards centre ground, because there is admittedly good and bad on both sides of the spectrum. The left/right idea in itself does define some kind of pre define structure, which isnt always the case with most people.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    I will ensure to ask the Chancellor to lower the tax threshold again then.

    Also, I'm not sure if you're missing a trick here, but the champagne socialists seem to do a very good job of getting richer and having no interest in people having aspiration to get wealthier, otherwise they lose their support base.

    I think there is a reason that increasing numbers of people are finding themselves identifying towards centre ground, because there is admittedly good and bad on both sides of the spectrum. The left/right idea in itself does define some kind of pre define structure, which isnt always the case with most people.

    Studying sociology and politics has pushed me further left than ever before, unless there are radical changes I don't think my view point will change. No, not everything is set in stone but there is definite injustice in the world that I do not agree with. I don't support any particular political party either, because they all have corruption in some form or another. When I am old enough to vote I'm fairly sure I will abstain.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Studying sociology and politics has pushed me further left than ever before, unless there are radical changes I don't think my view point will change. No, not everything is set in stone but there is definite injustice in the world that I do not agree with. I don't support any particular political party either, because they all have corruption in some form or another. When I am old enough to vote I'm fairly sure I will abstain.

    Be careful when embracing the Left.

    While ultimately I think the best morality and compassion can be found in slices of leftism, be wary of the demagoguery of what passes for the Left these days. Some of the most immoral pronouncements are being made by liberals and leftists who, ironically enough, believe they're being moral with their relativism and non-judgement.

    Have a look into the Universities UK furore at the moment for a good point in case. It's scary stuff: battles we thought had been won are having to be fought again.

    Edit: If you want to embrace the best parts of the Left I recommend you read What's Left: How Liberals Lost Their Way & You Can't Read This Book - both by Nick Cohen. I've actually got a spare copy of the later and will post it to you, if you've any interest.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Be careful when embracing the Left.

    While ultimately I think the best morality and compassion can be found in slices of leftism, be wary of the demagoguery of what passes for the Left these days. Some of the most immoral pronouncements are being made by liberals and leftists who, ironically enough, believe they're being moral with their relativism and non-judgement.

    Have a look into the Universities UK furore at the moment for a good point in case. It's scary stuff: battles we thought had been won are having to be fought again.

    Edit: If you want to embrace the best parts of the Left I recommend you read What's Left: How Liberals Lost Their Way & You Can't Read This Book - both by Nick Cohen. I've actually got a spare copy of the later and will post it to you, if you've any interest.

    Thanks CCH, as I say I would affiliate myself with any particular left wing party because, as of yet, I haven't found one I'd completely agree with. Just like I don't completely agree with any sociological ideology (feminism, marxism etc.) there are flaws in everything. I will go up to the library tomorrow in college and have a look for those books, there is a large selection. They sound like interesting reads.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    The problem with left wing politics, is that eventually you run out of everyone elses money.

    I'm actually not sure that reducing a debate to recycled soundbites is helpful.

    What's really interesting to me about Nelson Mandela is that he really was dangerous, and was implicated in violent attacks, but he became a symbol for peace. The complexity is what makes him so fascinating. It isn't so simple as to say, "Cameron wanted him hanged so Cameron wants apartheid everywhere forever", because Nelson Mandela, President of South Africa is a man who changed from Nelson Mandela, terrorist.

    The Long Walk to Freedom is on iPlayer a the moment as Book of the Week; recommended if you haven't read it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    piccolo wrote: »

    What's really interesting to me about Nelson Mandela is that he really was dangerous, and was implicated in violent attacks, but he became a symbol for peace. The complexity is what makes him so fascinating. It isn't so simple as to say, "Cameron wanted him hanged so Cameron wants apartheid everywhere forever", because Nelson Mandela, President of South Africa is a man who changed from Nelson Mandela, terrorist.

    The Long Walk to Freedom is on iPlayer a the moment as Book of the Week; recommended if you haven't read it.

    True 'dat. I think many people see S.Africa in 80s and 90s through a distorted prism and that it was a pure good against evil personified by Thatcher* . After all one of the favourite ways for the ANC and those linked to it to deal with policemen and others who they didn't like was to put a tyre round their neck, doused in petrol and then set in alight. And Mandela was married to Winnie who was involved in the torture and murder of a 14 year old boy.

    But his status wasn't because he fought apartheid, but because when he left jail, he was instrumental in trying to bind all sides together and kept S.Africa from falling into a cycle of revenge killings and bloody murder and unlike many post-colonial leaders** didn't dismantle democracy as soon as he could (or like Mugabe keeping the trappings, but not the foundations)

    * that's not true either of course - Thatcher and the UK Government were supporter of the Inkantha Freedom Party and its leader Buthelezi - who were supporters of much more moderate and gradualist approach, which eschewed violence. Now you can criticise them for lack realism as some violence was probably needed, but that's a different issue
    ** you could also add India and Ireland, plus a few others.
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