Essential support for under 25s
Essential support for under 25s
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Wind it back in please, I didn't say or imply "all" women were jealous (insecure was the word I used anyway).
Well yes we can make up our minds and we do. However it seems if women as a collective aren't sure whether it's degrading or not then it's a bit rich when they have a go at us if we say we're in favour of it and blame us for the continued exploitation of some women.
Read back through the thread, this came up before. The general idea was that images like that should be kept where they belong, i.e top shelf magazines and not in a national newspaper that is readily available on public transport, waiting rooms and pretty much anywhere. It won't change things over night but it's at least making an example and getting people to think
Apologies. Didn't get the memo about opinions having to match those of every other woman on the planet.
Now why would you say something like that? I've made it clear that right now I'm on the fence about the subject. But when the people who I assume are the majority against page 3 (women) seem to have conflicting views about it and can't seem to agree then it's going to be a lot harder for us to get behind you on it.
Actually I can't. I can see a lot of women say it objectifies them. On the surface (and I stress that) in the past I couldn't see that as being such an issue however I'm willing to admit I'm wrong about that going on the strength of feeling being displayed especially with the debate in the Senedd about it recently. I'm not female so I'm sure some of you can at least understand I may not be readily aware of the issue from the perspective of women.
However there are equally a lot of women who say they are happy to be glamour models. I'm friends with one who you have probably heard of (Welsh, z-lister, was once in Big Brother, no names mentioned) and she's always wanted to be a glamour model and so far has been relatively successful.
No way am I going to suggest that all women involved in glamour modelling are happy to be doing it but I'm not sure anyone has confirmed numbers to work out exact figures. When the topic of banning Page 3 comes up there always seems to be enough women in the industry to defend their 'job'.
I can see both sides of the argument. Both compelling and have merit. As such I'm on the fence about it. I'm not going to say the 'anti' brigade need to 'get over it' or whatever blokes seem to be expected to say these days. I'm not going to say the 'pro' women are deluded.
I've never seen any argument compelling enough to tip me either side. True enough I would not want any of my daughters to appear on Page 3 however as I understand it they only use models aged 18+ and once my girls are that age there's nothing I'd be able to do.
I'm not suggesting it would put them out of work, and that's not really what I meant but on that subject I'm sure the way they view it as publicity for them rather than whatever they get paid for it. There seems to be almost a 'badge of honour' in their world to be chosen for page 3. Not saying I agree or disagree, just stating what has been implied in the past.
For example; in the Welsh assembly Rebecca Evans stated that "?Page Three normalises the trivial objectification of women, entrenches inequality and sexist attitudes, and, well, quite simply, half-naked women just aren?t news!". This is a strongly held opinion of a lot of people, though there isn't any literature on the subject (not even on glamour photography - I've looked), they are generally opinions people hold. So on the one hand people's opinions do matter and we shouldn't be trying to offend people, on the other hand I do believe sometimes a lot of people can hold the same opinion and strongly believe it, but be incorrect (example: opponents to gay marriage, abortion, etc.)
There's always multiple angles to look at things though. On the subject of perfect body image: there's a lady doing photoshoots of post-pregnancy ladies as often stretch marks etc. are not seen as attractive and can be upsetting, and women should feel empowered whatever they look like. A retort to this was that part of what she is doing is pressuring women to be happy with their bodies regardless, when sometimes being unhappy with the way we look (for men and women) or other aspects about ourselves is natural.
Tl;dr its complex, and I think anyone (myself including) trying to make a summary argument as to whether its right or wrong or whether it should be stopped or continued would be doing it an injustice not to recognise its not black and white
If the problem isn't the nudity but the fact that they're pages for (consensual or not) ogling in what otherwise is supposedly a "normal" newspaper, putting bikinis on them shouldn't make any difference, right?
Which is absurd
It's like saying that photos of brutal murders are OK if the blood has been coloured green.
The problem isn't the colour of blood (or what the models are wearing), it's why the photos are there to begin with.
I agree. But I was trying to be positive. :P
Again, its a compromise isn't it.
In Germany violent video games are banned unless they use green blood.
Perhaps, but we have to recognise that (despite indiviual beliefs) we are probably closer culturally and politically to the US where puritanical evangelism is a central tenant of the political discourse, than to The Netherlands where sexual education and sexual liberation is paramount.
But as far as the real crux of the issue, Indrid is absolutely right.