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Strip clubs
**helen**
Deactivated Posts: 9,235 Supreme Poster
How do they make you feel?
As is often the case with threads initiated by me in this forum - inspired by a conversation with a friend.
I know it's been a while since Iceland banned them... but do you think the UK would ever go the same way? And should we?
What about Burlesque - I've heard people who can't stomach strip clubs say Burlesque is a different deal altogether. What do you reckon?
As is often the case with threads initiated by me in this forum - inspired by a conversation with a friend.
I know it's been a while since Iceland banned them... but do you think the UK would ever go the same way? And should we?
What about Burlesque - I've heard people who can't stomach strip clubs say Burlesque is a different deal altogether. What do you reckon?
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With Burlesque (where I have been to a few shows), its more of a creative outlet for many. Although its not always easy making loads of money stripping, there deffo is not all that money in Burlesque from what I can gather. Its more of a performance though. Yes there is the tease, but its often done in a comedy manner or to a routine. Many instances I have seen quite elaborate burlesque routines, some of which have invoked thoughts of artisticness etc.
I personally dont think that strip clubs will die a death, at least not for a long while. Whilst the majority of strip clubs are aimed at the male audience (or bisexual/homosexual female), people will still want to go to see stripping, and there will be those who want to strip. There are arguments about how strip clubs can degrade society etc, except those kind of people if seedy and horrible are already that way, not a symptom of stripping culture, just something that seeks it.
I think there are a few thoughts I could add to here, but I will leave some room for others to comment. I'm off to a friends (female) birthday party soon, and they have burlesque, pole dancing and potentially other dubious things. However, this group are quite connected in the burlesque scene in the north east, and generally its quite a lovely bunch and nothing dodgy about it. The people I know do it as a hobby.
Ethically if a person is happy to take their clothes off for money, and another is happy to pay, then there's nothing wrong with it. There are big issues with exploitation by club and venue owners, but that is more of an employment rights issue IMHO. If someone wants to strip, and is fully informed when making that choice, then that's their right.
Personally I've never really been tempted by them. Seems all a bit grubby.
I really hate the idea of strip clubs. There's one gay bar I won't go into at all since they got pole dancers one night a week. I can't guarantee that those women are coerced (through financial reasons, or more literally by another person), but no one can guarantee me that they're not, so I don't want anything to do with it.
I'm always wary of using the financial coercion argument because most jobs involve it to a greater or lesser extent. I go to work because I need the money, as do most of us, and is stripping more exploitative than minimum wage cleaning work? I think it can end up denigrating sex work as of no value, which may be true but has a further implication that sex workers have no value.
Tough one. I think its a case of going after strip clubs to make them treat their performers properly.
As long as the girls are fully informed, looked after and do it voluntarily then i guess their is essentially no real problem with it.
For me at least the whole idea of a gang of men staring at the same woman is a bit creepy. The idea of getting a private dance 5 mins after the same girl has been all over someone else is even creepier.
Maybe I thought about it too much. On a very basic level i can see why some men might find it appealing but it's not for me.
As for letting people do it, ehhh I dunno.
I've never actually been to a club, sometimes I think about going to see them, I'd love to see them perform - but I'm uncomfortable with overt sexuality, so it'll never happen.
As you go down the skill and intelligence scale it gets less rewarding, just like the "normal" world.
Personally, I find them to be grim places as I'm completely incapable of suspending my disbelief. That being said, of course they should be legal. If one consenting adult takes off their clothes for the enjoyment of another consenting adult, then what business is that of anyone else?
I disagree in the specific - no matter what the job "bosses" are wankers who exploit their customers and workforce, but I agree with the general point that it's the customers that bear the brunt in such establishments.
In most things I find you get the best results by contracting someone who is genuinely self-employed.
I will disclaim that I am not committed either way here, but as a point of discussion - just because two people consent does not make it ok. One person could be coerced to consent, or be held ransom by her circumstances (need money for whatever). I think in those cases, its not a fair playing field where two happy adults are making an exchange... but instead its a situation where there is an asymmetric power relationship, open to abuse..
Isn't that the case with any situation where people need money?
You could also argue that the male clientele of strip clubs aren't particularly happy either and are so desperate to see a naked lady they are also open to being exploited.
True, to an extent - that's what most left wing socialists or anarchists would argue, that labour classes have no choice but to work so are effectively economic slaves... though I think we can reach a more modest agreement that dancing to sexually titillate other people is by its nature more exploitative.
Well perhaps, but usually exploitation is meant to mean (from wiki):
In this case the majority of the clientelle are making an informed decision to go to these places. There's plenty of alternate avenues they could go down to seek to remedy their unhappiness and probably more effectively too. In an article I just read apparently the majority like to go for 'stress relief', whatever that means... what you say may well be true but I would argue less so than the vice versa, there is probably limited choice for a women who opts to become a dancer vs the availability of choice of someone who opts to watch a dancer...
Why? Aren't you just projecting your own feelings about sex onto the rest of society? Not everyone has hang ups about sex that would prevent them as just seeing it as a normal job like anyone else (incidentally, I include myself amongst the people that do). I find the idea of someone buffing my shoes to be a bit uncomfortable, but I'm not going to make judgements about that person's job as a result of my own feelings. Ultimately, I don't see how it's any different from paying someone to massage you. Ultimately, you're paying someone to devote an hour of their time to make you feel good.
I've only been to strip clubs on two occasions, but one of those was in Bangkok, which meant we went to quite a few in one night (which incidentally, it arguably far more exploitative given the economic differences). The one I went to in the UK was at 4am on a week night, during a friends stag party, and it was pretty tragic and not even slightly erotic. The second was more of a mini tour around the Soi Cowboy in Bangkok. The first one we went into was fantastic, but everything else on the street was crap, so we ended up back at that one again. So 3 out of 4 had women who didn't look like they wanted to be there, but in the good one, the girls were pretty enthusiastic. Whether they were just better actors, I don't know. The main problem with strip clubs is that they're just pretty frustrating places, so I'm in no hurry to go back to one any time soon. You're basically paying someone to do everything leading up to sex with you, but then not actually have sex.
But as for whether they should be allowed or not, as I understand it, they are actually far less disruptive to the local community than a normal bar or pub. As long as the front is pretty discreet, I don't see an issue.
It's also worth pointing out that male strippers are very rarely mentioned when it comes to this question. Again, I think there's a double standard when it comes to how men and women are seen when it comes to sexual activity.
Different people have different standards. Different people like different things. If society adhered to the ideology of the average a-level sociology text book we may as well all just commit suicide en-masse.
Banning things due to their side effects is ridiculous. It's like the situation with drugs. Banning them hasn't done anything to eliminate the negative causes of using them.
In my opinion, stripping is comparable to professional football. The workers take a massively disproportionate take of the net revenue of the industry. If this was any other industry people would declare it a victory for the workers. As it's stripping (football) its distasteful/exploitative/blah etc (overpaying fools to kick a ball about). People see others earning loads doing something they can't or won't do and don't like it.
The real exploitation is by the industry owners against the industry workers. But that's an employment issue, one which is exacerbated by the stigma of the industry.
Well, firstly, my own feelings along with most of my other political beliefs, are that it should be regulated rather than pushed underground. As I said before I'm on the fence about strip bars and if it was banned I would not lose any sleep.
The thing that makes sex work de facto more exploitative (vs other labour) is the limited power and agency of sex workers vs your average worker. You could rectify this through regulation. As is, if you are a happy, empowered woman and make a great living off dancing or other sex work - fantastic. If you are have no other choice due to financial constraints and work in a hostile or abusive environment - tough luck. Men can be pigs and its probably something sex workers have to deal with on a daily basis; one of my friends works in the porn industry as a cameraguy and this random bloke the boss knew came onto the set and started groping some of the actresses no doubt because in his mind, these are just sex objects. Props to my friend he told him to GTFO but still, this is the world we live in.
If that was in your regular office you could have gone to the police / sued your employer / the usual. In the sex industry, even at the nicer/higher end, women will have to put up with it because some men are pigs - and the women who complain too much will likely find herself out of work.
In general you would not say the men are being exploited because they have a demand that is being met at a price presumably they are willing to pay (even if they're not happy about it). Else they would exercise their choice to spend their money elsewhere.
Because of the more discrete nature of sex work, vs other work, there is a higher chance for a woman to find herself in a job she can't quit and in a hostile or degrading environment. The dream would be to have every strip club 5* amazing even behind the curtains where the boss wouldn't have a go / threaten you with the sack if you were feeling shit and didn't want to go on out on that night. I imagine that is far from the case unfortunately.
I'm not projecting at all for fucks sake. But fine, discussion over.
I'd imagine it generally is far from the reality - these places are strictly regulated and I'd expect managment is acutely aware of the sensitivies involved politically so ensuring the right work environment is maintained would have to be a top priority for any businessman with a modicum of acumen - rigorous enforcement of proper conduct is surely the best defence against the anti crowd.
I didn't read any obvious projections into what you posted but I suspect your idea how these businesses work and the power dynamics at play is off-target, way more sinister than the reality. distortions of truth and misrepresentations have to be expected from certain ideological quarters to propogate what is essentially a form of puritanism disguised as 'women's rights' when it comes to these sorts of matters, the exploitation narrative they push something akin to latter-day Dickens story...and I can see that influence in your thoughts here.
an increasingly popular way for female students to cover costs apparently, no doubt less demanding and more rewarding for them than working behind a bar....otherwise they'd be behind a bar!
They're as bad as many other small businesses, however recent rulings have found that they can't treat their staff as self-employed (that the rulings were sought suggest that the nature of the work doesn't condemn the performers to silent servitude)
Stripping is fine if everyone wants to be there and is treated properly. Trouble is, they're not, which is the problem with clubs. But slagging stripping as unethical just makes it easier to exploit the workers and, yeah, exploit the punters.
She works 2-3 nights a week on top of her 4 day week as an NHS blood nurse, whilst doing an open university course in psychology. Each night she pays £20 house fees and the house takes a cut of the money she makes for dances. She can earn anywhere between £50 and £1000 a night
She has never felt exploited by either the club or the hunters who visit. Its a relatively classy place, non nude, and she feels the house really protects her. She has fallen out with other girls that work there from time to time but she generally has a good time working there.
Properly regulated, I don't think there's a problem.