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Police

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
What do you think of 'em?

I don't have anything against individual coppers, but I'm critical of them as an organisation, due to the admittedly limited personal experience I've had, and some of the sickening things they seem to get away with which other groups of people don't. For example, the way Jean Charles de Menezes and Ian Tomlinson's deaths were initially covered up, and the disproportionate number of people who have died in police custody, I think it's over 1k since 1990? Yet there's been zero convictions.

Discuss.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's been discussed to no end many times before. But I don't trust many people/organisations much, there's corruption everywhere. I wouldn't trust a anyone because of their title/position/uniform unless I knew them personally for a long period of time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    JavaKrypt wrote: »
    It's been discussed to no end many times before. But I don't trust many people/organisations much, there's corruption everywhere. I wouldn't trust a anyone because of their title/position/uniform unless I knew them personally for a long period of time.

    Sorry, I'm new here.
    :wave:

    I agree of course, but I think it's more important for the population to be concerned about corruption in the armed wing of the state, because unlike a jobsworth council worker, they can inflict some real damage (up to and including death) and get away with it. Just look at America and other countries.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wouldn't refer to the police in the UK as heavily armed to be honest. I think its entirely subjective as to what people think about the Police. If someone has a negative experience of them, no matter whether it was purely an individual or more institutionalised, people will keep that view. Otherwise people may well have a relatively benign view.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    I wouldn't refer to the police in the UK as heavily armed to be honest. I think its entirely subjective as to what people think about the Police. If someone has a negative experience of them, no matter whether it was purely an individual or more institutionalised, people will keep that view. Otherwise people may well have a relatively benign view.

    When I was a child I thought of the police as lovely friendly neighbourhood PCs.

    My experiences of the police have been mixed, but the impression I have of them as a whole has changed from lovely to more suspicious of them. I think part of the problem is they are always going after the 'bad guys' so forget that 99% of people are good and nice, and as such treat most people like perps. People are not stupid however, and being viewed as an 'uncaught criminal' does not foster a good relationship.

    Maybe that's a necessary part of being a PC though, along with how medical professionals treat people as 'patients' instead of people. However my experience with GPs and specialists has been a lot more warm / friendly, even if that's just a face they put on. PCs generally put on the 'fuckyou' face.
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    Scumbags. Not all of them, but a lot of the
    m.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    Scumbags. Not all of them, but a lot of them.

    A fair and just point. I've never had any problem with the police, but I reckon that at least some of the people who do have serious issues with them, are no angels themselves.
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    I may not have been an angel when I was younger and a lot of my encounters with the police were deserved, but I don't think that has anything to do with it.

    The Police should be a organisation people can trust, it should ask the highest standards of those who work within it, and hold them to account when they fuck up.
    It's hard to argue that are ever held to account - they look after themselves and they generally get off scott free or certainly get away lighter than any non police would.If anything, memebers of the police should face harsher punishment when they break the law.

    The nature of job means it's attractive employment for people who enjoy a daily power trip, and the police should be doing it's best to make sure those that it employs people who aren't there just to get a trip from the extra powers they hold.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do the police do a psychological profiling as part of their recruitment?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    A fair and just point. I've never had any problem with the police, but I reckon that at least some of the people who do have serious issues with them, are no angels themselves.

    Yeah that's true, but I know of a lot of activists who have major criticisms of the police all across the political spectrum with all kinds of different view points (far left to far right), generally based on their own experiences. The police have a habit of illegally confiscating cameras, megaphones, and other stuff like that.
    As for the coppers themselves, I can't pretend I know every single one but my limited experience hasn't been particularly great, for example I got threatened with arrest under S5 POA when one barged past me on a night-out and swore at me (yes, he swore at me without provocation) when I swore back and told him to get some respect. A mate of mine also had his jaw broken by a thug in the Tactical Aid Unit at a protest a couple of years back, the same section of GMP coppers who took it upon themselves to chased down and beat up some kids retreating during the riots (caught on camera, got off scot-free of course) and went on a documentary a few years back calling all protesters things like scum, spongers, etc. Shocking arrogance.

    I've lightly discussed things with some coppers, some are actually quite level headed, but you get quite a few who simply refuse to believe the police are incapable of being wrong, such as over the Jean Charles de Menezes or Ian Tomlinson cases, they try to rationalise it or blame the victims.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In the Brazilian on the tube incident, definite fault lies with police yes, but not the guys on the ground, the issues were from higher up.

    At protests I don't think anyone can be excused causing horrific injuries, but if I was at a protest that was turning a little fruity, although for some its unavoidable, is there a need to stand right at the front and try confronting the police. I accept that isn't everybody and im in no way saying people asked for it either.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, I don't blame the guys on the ground during that incident, as horrific as their actions were (they were only following orders), but the incompetence of the team who planned and conducted that operation, and the way Ian Blair (the police commissioner at the time) tried to cover it up, as well as all the lies which were told about him. "He ran from the police", "he jumped over the ticket barrier", "the police tried to warn him before they shot him" - all bullshit. Blair even recommended everyone involved in the op got medals. There should have been job losses and convictions over the affair.. not medals and pats on the back. Then of course there was people out there trying to blame his immigration status.

    As for during protest events. The police units they use in public order like the TAU, TSG, OSG, etc are supposed to be well trained and well experienced, not to mention they are very well equipt in all the latest anti-riot gear & weapons, whereas most protesters are not anywhere near as advantaged, yet they still often take it upon themselves to treat themselves to a few free shots. I'm not saying all protesters are the most well behaved or peaceful, as the situation itself gets lairy, but it doesn't reflect well on the police. Ian Tomlinson, as I said, is a prime example of someone who wasn't even involved in the G20 protest, but got struck and killed by a member of the TSG just for walking past by. The copper, PC Harwood, lost his job for it, but did not get convicted. I bet you any money if a lairy protester struck a copper and killed him by accident in the exact same situation, they'd throw the entire library at him. There's a bit of a double standard IMO.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    David PD wrote: »
    The copper, PC Harwood, lost his job for it, but did not get convicted. I bet you any money if a lairy protester struck a copper and killed him by accident in the exact same situation, they'd throw the entire library at him. There's a bit of a double standard IMO.

    Well yes, but that's kind of an essential part of the illusion. There are 260ish police officers for every 100,000 people in England and Wales (here). If people didn't believe that it was impossible to challenge the police, then the police would be ineffective. In the UK, it's policing by consent, but the consent is based on the belief that you can't get away with a damned thing. Especially not attacking a police officer.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    David PD wrote: »
    Well, I don't blame the guys on the ground during that incident, as horrific as their actions were (they were only following orders), but the incompetence of the team who planned and conducted that operation, and the way Ian Blair (the police commissioner at the time) tried to cover it up, as well as all the lies which were told about him. "He ran from the police", "he jumped over the ticket barrier", "the police tried to warn him before they shot him" - all bullshit. Blair even recommended everyone involved in the op got medals. There should have been job losses and convictions over the affair.. not medals and pats on the back. Then of course there was people out there trying to blame his immigration status.

    As for during protest events. The police units they use in public order like the TAU, TSG, OSG, etc are supposed to be well trained and well experienced, not to mention they are very well equipt in all the latest anti-riot gear & weapons, whereas most protesters are not anywhere near as advantaged, yet they still often take it upon themselves to treat themselves to a few free shots. I'm not saying all protesters are the most well behaved or peaceful, as the situation itself gets lairy, but it doesn't reflect well on the police. Ian Tomlinson, as I said, is a prime example of someone who wasn't even involved in the G20 protest, but got struck and killed by a member of the TSG just for walking past by. The copper, PC Harwood, lost his job for it, but did not get convicted. I bet you any money if a lairy protester struck a copper and killed him by accident in the exact same situation, they'd throw the entire library at him. There's a bit of a double standard IMO.

    There is that conundrum where if that had been a terrorist, they would be damned if they do, damned if they don't. Its all well and good using magic hindsight after the event, but if you were on the ground and were told the things they were, and I mean you only knew what they did on the ground, none of what you had read in the papers, what would you have done? It would be interesting if a terrorist attack took place in the UK, where lots of people were killed or injured, which could have been easily avoided, but wasnt, I bet the police and security services would get it in the neck big time.

    I think in my mind what is just as bad as some police actions is the duality of public opinion where the police are damned if they do, damned if they dont.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    There is that conundrum where if that had been a terrorist, they would be damned if they do, damned if they don't. Its all well and good using magic hindsight after the event, but if you were on the ground and were told the things they were, and I mean you only knew what they did on the ground, none of what you had read in the papers, what would you have done? It would be interesting if a terrorist attack took place in the UK, where lots of people were killed or injured, which could have been easily avoided, but wasnt, I bet the police and security services would get it in the neck big time.

    I think in my mind what is just as bad as some police actions is the duality of public opinion where the police are damned if they do, damned if they dont.

    What's your point. Are you saying it's wrong for members of the public to be outraged by the lies, excuses and cover-ups that's occured after police mistakes? Or the fact that an innocent person has lost his life at the hands of a public service which exists to preserve and protect life, and want answers?

    Tbh. I'm still personally confused to how

    1) They managed to mistake a white Caucasian Brazilian with a middle Eastern Asian looking man. And why they doctored his photo after?
    2) Since the terrorists on 7/7 bombed buses, why the police let him board a bus and sat on there with him on the way to Stockwell?

    But I suspect what most people ultimately want, including the dudes family, is that something similar never happens again. Natural right? So something good should come out of criticism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The thing is, those points you raise concern me as well, however thinking about the guys on the ground that actually did the shooting/chasing, these are all things that have been raised with the benefit of hindsight.

    I think loss of life would be greater in a confined space within a tunnel on the tube, than it would be on a bus where the explosive effect isn't as compressed. If anything it does tell me that they had doubts about him being a danger perhaps?

    As for what ended up happening, I ask a simple question, not whether you would have made the right choice or not, but if you were under the impression that this man was a danger to others, would you have taken the shot?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think the police have a massive problem when it comes to accountability. Not only does it mean that bad police officers aren't punished, but it also creates further problems when police officers know they can get away with a slap on the wrists. There's no incentive for people who are that way inclined to not do it.

    But one other thing that's very revealing is not just how the increase in video technology has shown how some police operate, but how zero of their colleagues ever come forward to report it. How many "good" coppers saw the Ian Tomlinson incident? And how many filed a report saying that they saw the killer pushing him over from behind? That's right, next to none of the so-called good cops are willing to report one of their own, even when they see a clear abuse of power occurring.

    Things like the Ian Tomlinson case damage the police incredibly. This isn't a case of the police officers word against the victim's about what happened out of sight of anyone else, this is something that happened in full view of the whole world on camera, and they still can't get a conviction. Things like this and Hillsborough show that the police as an institution will routinely lie their way out of any wrongdoing. That's far more damaging than the news that one cop is incapable of controlling himself in a heated situation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've kept quiet, but only because I've been on holiday.... :)

    People will either like or dislike the police. People will like some cops and hate most others. I'm told, in the community I work in that I'm liked because I'm fair, polite and consistent with everyone I come into contact with. I know this to be true because they give me information about crimes, they're respectful towards me even if I'm nicking one of their mates and I can't remember the last time I was called a pig or oinked at. At the same time those same people tell me the names of other cops and PCSOs who they think are absolute shit bags, and I know this to be true because those cops and PCSOs come into the station telling me what a pain in the arse some people are and how do i put up with them etc.

    I do want to say something about punishment e.t.c. cops do get punished for stuff, all the time. I know people who have gone through the process, I know people who have been quite rightly sacked. I know of even more people who quietly resign before it gets that far. A lot of this, because it isn't a criminal trial is unreported.
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