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The Next US President?

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The thing is, I really don't meet a whole lot of Americans who shit on any other country. Most Americans I know are people who have a good deal of respect for Britain and its people. To be honest, when I first started having conversations with Brits, I was pretty shocked to see how malicious many of their views were. Naturally, this isn't all-inclusive, but from what I've seen, it's a pretty big majority.

    Fortunately, I know some cool Englishmen who offset this. But you have to sometimes consider how you're going to make hatred a two-way street in attacking someone who otherwise has no qualm with you.

    By no means do I think America is perfect. I think our current administration is horrendous as was the last one and the one before that and the one before that. But I do love my country and I'm quite proud of what my country stands for and I don't see why that warrants anyone calling me an intolerant, xenophobic, gun-totin', ignorant, fat, racist redneck with a predisposition for war.

    In regards to Rick Perry, I really don't see why it's a big deal that they had a prayer surface about something that was a major issue at the time. And I'm not even a fan of Rick Perry and as religious as I am, that's not something I would do. I just don't see how that is the area of concern for anyone. Yet, Obama is an 'intelligent moderate' for going to Ireland and speaking in a very bad Irish accent in the name of multi-culturalism?

    Not saying Americans aren't ignorant. They are. But the whole idea that they're any more ignorant than anyone else is mind-boggling. But at the same time, I think you're overestimating the average American's egocentricism. In general, Americans don't really give a shit what the rest of the world thinks about us; let alone want anyone to pay homage to us. It's more of a "live and let live" mentality. 'Least, that's what I've observed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah - mine. The thing is if you state you're anti-american the people often begin to imagine all kinds of weird and wacky things about you.

    It's not racist for me to say I am anti-american. Sure, 'racist' is the easiest (and laziest) insult to throw at anyone these days. To seemingly most americans these days, to be called 'anti-american' is on a similar level to that of being called a murderer.

    People have assumed this means I was in favour of the 9/11 attacks (which I'm not), that I take pleasure from their servicemen and women getting killed in Afganistan etc (which I don't) etc.

    I am anti-american in the sense of I am tired of their government being the world super bully. I acknowledge and respect the fact that they spend a lot of money of foreign aid but whatever america wants, america generally gets - regardless of which laws get broken. Do they respect international law? Not really, especially if it stands in the way of getting what it wants.

    I get annoyed when other governments pander to america. I'm not really a fan of france either but I loved it when they stood up to their demands for backing the iraq invasion.

    Oh I know I'll be shouted down on here, as if being anti-american is some sort of evil but I really don't care. I don't wish any harm on any american, it just means I'm pretty unimpressed with its foreign policies.

    And how they refer to us brits as 'English' :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, I was referring to English as English. I didn't realize there was anyone else here, so alright. Find and replace anywhere where I said "English" and change it to "Brit" if it makes you happy. It doesn't quite make a difference in terms of the overall message.

    I'm under no delusion that Americanophobia does not equate to racism. For that to be the case, American would have to be a race. Which it's not. That being said, my point still stands about it being silly.

    First of all, how many Americans off of the internet have you really met? How many among that pool have you had deep discussions about their personal views on international policy? I'm going to be generous and say around twelve. Now, tell me, what's the standard deviation of using twelve as a sample to judge the collective opinion of 500 million people? It's the equivalent of me saying that every nation in Europe believes XYZ.

    Maybe I'm wrong and you've spent a good deal of time getting to know a sizeable amount of people in all 50 of its diverse and drastically different states. But your opinions on the subject don't really show it.

    I didn't associate your Americanophobia with anything like Al Qaeda. What I associated it with was supercilious belligerence and baseless attacks. Of which I'll cover as we go.

    You referred to America as the "world super bully", but that's kind of a hunk of BBC bullshit. You cited no examples and instead resorted to a Jan Brady "MARCIA! MARCIA! MARCIA!" tirade about how the U.S. gets whatever they want. But realistically, the U.S. dolls out more money to international... well, everything. Honestly, do you think the U.N. would have the power it does without the U.S. (and no, I'm not saying no other nation contributes)? Why is it unreasonable that the U.S. has more say proportionate to its input? It's classic Bar Stool Economics. See below:

    Click here.

    Would you be in favor of the U.S. drastically cutting its input to match other nations? Or for that matter, even divorcing itself with the U.N.? I know I certainly would. Our Constitution prohibits any affiliation with anything like the U.N.

    Here's an article by an Italian scholar by the name of Piero Scaruffi. I don't agree with everything it says, but it makes some valid points you might want to consider. Click here.

    I'm curious though. You're annoyed when other countries pander to the U.S. Can you say the same about the U.S. pandering to other countries?

    I'd also advice checking out some articles by virgomonkey:
    Americanophobia is based on ignorance.
    Only in America?
    The Difference Between An Americanophobe And A Humanitarian
    Who Are The Best And Worst Tourists?
    Americans are so meannnnnnnnnn


    By the way, I was on the forum of that Aby the Liberal bloke (before I even knew of virgomonkey) and 99% of his posts (and mind you, it was a teen forum) were about how America was mean and awful and how all Americans were scum bags. A little effort to completely disprove every claim he made and he banned me. Not only that, he banned another member simply for having an avatar that was an American flag draped over a Bible, citing that it was infallamatory to 'people who suffered in the name of that flag'. I have never, in my life, seen something like that on an American forum.

    I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that that happens everywhere, but it's a point against the hypocrisy against Americanphobes. And if you really want to talk about bullying, have you ever looked into how British protectionism perpetuates the starvation of third world African countries?

    Here's a (admittedly, pretty belligerent) quote from another website tackling Americanophobia:
    America is a great and powerful country. And America acts like every other great and powerful country has acted throughout history. With one notable exception: we try to do right not only by our friends, but by our enemies as well.

    After Germany (with some help from the Allies) flattened most of Europe, we pretty much rebuilt every part of Europe which was not occupied by the Russians, including more than half of Germany. The Russians on the other hand stripped not only Germany of their wealth, but most of eastern Europe as well.

    So perhaps it is true that we do tend to throw our weight around. But if we didn't, the rest of the world would surely tear each others throats out. So please, the rest of the world, when it comes to our aircraft carriers and cruise missiles, please remember to say Thank You, or else kindly shut your trap.

    By the way, Glenn Quagmire is a boss. It's a shame that Family Guy wasn't made in America. Oh wait...

    Disclaimer: I know not all of you believe what Glenn Quagmire is saying nor do you have any affiliation with anything I've posted in regards to the British here. Don't take it like I'm trying to run your country down. I actually have no qualm with the U.K.; just the attitudes of CERTAIN people within. As I'm sure you have qualms with many of the Americans within my own country.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wow calm down mate or you'll burst a blood vessel.

    Firstly why would you not realise (please spell it correctly, this is a UK based site after all ;)) that Welsh. Scottish or N Irish people would be on here? I mean, you have a good grasp of other countries' affairs right?

    Anyway.

    I can't comment on anything you've labelled under the heading of 'Americanophobia', simply because whatever the hell it is, I am not it. I do have a phobia but that is of falling. However I do not fear you, your countrymen/women or your country.

    As I clearly stated, I dislike your country's foreign policy, its attitude to the rest of the world, however you ignored that (intentionally or otherwise), in favour of accusing me of 'Americanophobia' as it's a nice easy way for you to pigeon-hole me so you can aim your patriotism in my direction.

    OK how many Americans have I met away from the internet and had a deep discussion on their views? Firstly I wasn't aware that you had to meet someone in person to have that discussion but let me dissect your question a bit. How many Americans have I met in person? Several hundred: 10 years ago I worked in Magdalen College's Student Services department (specifically dealing with housing issues) and for some reason the majority of students using our department were American. Now I know you're not going to ask did it pain me to be dealing with these people due to my anti-Americanism because by now you're fully aware that I have nothing personal against any American, as outlined in my last post so I just KNOW you won't get that wrong again.

    Whilst dealing with the american students it became obviously pretty quickly that you have a different system for housing for University students (or at least you did at the time - from around 1998 to 2001) because the one line we'd hear over and over again would be "It's not done like that in the States" to which of course there was only one response - "Yes you're in Britain now". In fact the "That's not how it's done in the States" was a line we'd hear a hell of a lot in lots of different scenarios. One curious question we'd often get asked is "Does your country have any 4th July celebrations planned?"

    As a sidenote I also worked at the Odeon cinema in Oxford and this one time an American girl came in to buy some tickets by credit card as the transaction was going through, upon checking the signature strip on the back of her card, instead of a signature it said "See I.D.". She then showed me what I presumed to be some sort of National identity card. When I told her there was no way I could accept that (it wasn't me being a 'traffic warden' - it would have been against company policy to accept it) she said, yes you guessed it, "it's accepted in the States".

    These are just 2 examples out of many. Did I have an in-depth discussion about their views on foreign policy? No, because that's not what my issue is about. My gripe (as mentioned in my previous post) is with your government's foreign policy. I can just about tolerate the average american's superiority complex (this is a great site for good examples of it backfiring) but what winds me up is the attitude displayed by the ones I have dealt with, where they seem to assume because we speak a similar language that their rules are ours.

    It's very hard to have a discussion like this with a lot of americans because it seems that from birth it is drummed in to them that any criticism of their country is to be taken as a personal insult.

    As for america pandering to other countries, when was the last time america stepped down first in a diplomatic argument with another nation?

    When was the last time america failed to have someone extradited to a country it has an agreement with, in relation to how often the reverse occurs?

    Why is the extradition agreement between your country and mine heavily in favour of yours?

    Over the French snub about getting UN backing for iraq - Freedom Fries? Oh come on!! Yes yes, I know that was not adopted by the majority of your country but it's a fine example of how silly American patriotism gets. People boycotting Italian goods because Amanda Fox gets jailed there? Seriously?!

    I know what you'll say, these examples alone do not prove anything on a grand scale. I'm with you on that. However I do not have a hatred (or 'phobia') of americans. I just love exposing the silliness that (collectively) your patriotism delivers.

    Oh and yes, Family Guy is brilliant (I prefer the Cleveland Show to be honest), I've not said anything against american programmes (although in fairness like any other country, the US has some truly awful tv).

    Anti-americanism is not about attacking everything you, your people, your government, your economy etc does.

    It's about finally having enough of the 'america is best, everyone else is a very distant second' attitude. I only enjoyed one scene from 'Love, Actually' - I'm guessing you know which part that was.

    Another good site to open your mind to things you most probably were not aware of.. http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/hateamerica.html

    I don't agree with any points connected to 'hatred' - and I would oppose anyone who claimed to 'hate' america. But it gives a good idea that people people who were surveyed had completely the wrong ideas about why there are so many anti-americans.

    Not that I'd expect them to care.

    Oh another thing. Many of them seemed to be under the impression that America won WW2 for us and even lost the most troops...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm very calm. What gave you the impression that I wasn't?
    Firstly why would you not realise (please spell it correctly, this is a UK based site after all ) that Welsh. Scottish or N Irish people would be on here? I mean, you have a good grasp of other countries' affairs right?

    I'm American. Therefore, "realize" is correct. And I didn't realize it because I hadn't come across them. Simple as that.
    Anyway.

    I can't comment on anything you've labelled under the heading of 'Americanophobia', simply because whatever the hell it is, I am not it. I do have a phobia but that is of falling. However I do not fear you, your countrymen/women or your country.

    Hahahaha. I knew it.

    Tell me, if I talked badly about Islam, would you not call me Islamophobic? If I talked badly about non-Americans, would you not call me xenophobic?
    As I clearly stated, I dislike your country's foreign policy, its attitude to the rest of the world, however you ignored that (intentionally or otherwise), in favour of accusing me of 'Americanophobia' as it's a nice easy way for you to pigeon-hole me so you can aim your patriotism in my direction.

    I ignored it? Looks to me that I addressed both 'points' of yours.
    OK how many Americans have I met away from the internet and had a deep discussion on their views? Firstly I wasn't aware that you had to meet someone in person to have that discussion but let me dissect your question a bit. How many Americans have I met in person? Several hundred: 10 years ago I worked in Magdalen College's Student Services department (specifically dealing with housing issues) and for some reason the majority of students using our department were American. Now I know you're not going to ask did it pain me to be dealing with these people due to my anti-Americanism because by now you're fully aware that I have nothing personal against any American, as outlined in my last post so I just KNOW you won't get that wrong again.

    The internet is a breeding ground for trolls, so it's a little harder to gauge who is legit on that accord.

    As for your pitter patter about allegedly having nothing to do against any American:
    I really doubt that. We may pay a bit more attention when it comes to the actual election itself but whatever merry-go-ground antics Yankland goes through before that is of little interest to most I reckon.
    Paranoia comes as standard to many americans when people from other countries aren't on their knees paying homage...

    Now, I know you're going to go on about how you're attacking U.S. policies, but notice that you were talking about elections and who the "Yanks" were going to vote in. Doesn't seem to be very structurally aimed.

    But whatever. I suppose it's roughly irrelevant, so I'll take your word for it.
    superiority complex

    You mean like this?:
    (please spell it correctly, this is a UK based site after all

    ;)
    It's very hard to have a discussion like this with a lot of americans because it seems that from birth it is drummed in to them that any criticism of their country is to be taken as a personal insult.

    Or maybe it's simply that enough Brits have raged at them that they feel naturally alienated and put on the defensive when someone is rudely attacking them. If you came to the U.S. and I started dissing your country for absolutely no reason, I'd think that you'd get a little uptight too.

    As I said, I'm well aware that there are stupid Americans. I've also run across a great many moronic Europeans, British or otherwise.
    As for america pandering to other countries, when was the last time america stepped down first in a diplomatic argument with another nation?

    When was the last time america failed to have someone extradited to a country it has an agreement with, in relation to how often the reverse occurs?

    Why is the extradition agreement between your country and mine heavily in favour of yours?

    Why are you answering a question with another question?
    Over the French snub about getting UN backing for iraq - Freedom Fries? Oh come on!! Yes yes, I know that was not adopted by the majority of your country but it's a fine example of how silly American patriotism gets. People boycotting Italian goods because Amanda Fox gets jailed there? Seriously?!

    Are you really going to sit here and pick out every stupid thing an American has ever done?
    Another good site to open your mind to things you most probably were not aware of.. http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/hateamerica.html

    I've actually read a great many articles on Vexen. Including that one in particular.
    Oh another thing. Many of them seemed to be under the impression that America won WW2 for us and even lost the most troops...

    And Canadians believe it was them who raided the White House during the War of 1812. And the British have a hard time discerning Libertarianism from Socialism.

    Should be noted that our educational system has been purposely sabotaged since 1960, but that's besides the point. Even you can't deny that the U.S. had an instrumental role in WWII (no, I'm not saying we did anything single-handedly.) I can't quite defend anyone on an anecdotal story being that I wasn't there to discern any bias or flagrant retellings, but from what I do see, you're making molehills into mountains.

    What I'm concerned with is that your own nationalism is erasing what your country has to be proud of. Instead of saying "We're awesome because...", you're turning your culture into "America sucks because..." So, yes, some Americans (honestly, probably the vast minority because most Americans I know are pretty hard on the U.S.) are proud of their nation, but even among the most nationalist, I've never seen any American try to shit on any other country in the process of talking itself up.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What I'm concerned with is that your own nationalism is erasing what your country has to be proud of. Instead of saying "We're awesome because...", you're turning your culture into "America sucks because..." So, yes, some Americans (honestly, probably the vast minority because most Americans I know are pretty hard on the U.S.) are proud of their nation, but even among the most nationalist, I've never seen any American try to shit on any other country in the process of talking itself up.

    To be honest the UK has gone some what downhill since we ruled lots and lots of the world, back in the good old days. God bless the British Empire.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Tell me, if I talked badly about Islam, would you not call me Islamophobic? If I talked badly about non-Americans, would you not call me xenophobic?

    No and yes. There's nothing wrong with criticising Islam. Though a lot of people attempt to equate it to attacking all Muslims with labels like "Islamophobic" in order to suppress that criticism. Similarly, people will use labels like "anti-American" to suppress criticism of policies that they agree with, particularly when that criticism comes from outside America. It is particularly telling when people use any word with any word with "phobic" at the end, because that specifically refers to an irrational fear or hatred of something, rather than a legitimate opposition to it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    To be honest the UK has gone some what downhill since we ruled lots and lots of the world, back in the good old days. God bless the British Empire.
    Oh, I dunno. I think I'd take free healthcare and minimum paid holidays over working in sweatshops to fuel a war machine to benefit the rich and powerful.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No and yes. There's nothing wrong with criticising Islam. Though a lot of people attempt to equate it to attacking all Muslims with labels like "Islamophobic" in order to suppress that criticism. Similarly, people will use labels like "anti-American" to suppress criticism of policies that they agree with, particularly when that criticism comes from outside America. It is particularly telling when people use any word with any word with "phobic" at the end, because that specifically refers to an irrational fear or hatred of something, rather than a legitimate opposition to it.

    I agree that there's nothing wrong with criticizing Islam. I'm one of the staunchest critics of the Qu'ran and the Hadith. So, I simply accept the buzz words like "Islamophobic" in favor of addressing the actual facts. To be honest, anti-American and Americanophobia have the same connotation to me, so it doesn't really matter which one you use.

    :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As I said, I'm well aware that there are stupid Americans. I've also run across a great many moronic Europeans, British or otherwise.

    In general, I have to agree.

    If I was to find something which really riles me about the USA, it's the bringing of 'god' into your politics.

    For instance, 'God' put Bush in the Whitehouse, 'God' sanctioned the Iraq war etc etc

    Well, in that case, God is to blame for the continuing deaths and maiming of all the US soldiers, and for the US troops coming home with their tails between their legs etc.

    Where the fuck is this fucking loser God now? Yet everyone still panders to this vile figment of human imagination and, regrettably, around half of the US population believe all this shit.

    Just keep God out of politics. Period.

    Bachmann, Perry et al, STFU already!

    Other than that, I love my US cousins. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A: Republican candidates X, Y and Z hold worrying beliefs.

    B: Well the UK has dumb-asses, too / stop being a xenophobe / say that about black people.

    Stupendous debate - simply spiffing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A: Republican candidates X, Y and Z hold worrying beliefs.

    B: Well the UK has dumb-asses, too / stop being a xenophobe / say that about black people.

    Stupendous debate - simply spiffing.

    Compared say to this incisive and intelligent comment?
    I set off my rape alarm, drop my trousers and try to soil myself as quickly as possible whenever I feel threatened. It's the best defence ever: I've not been mugged yet.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Really? That's what you're going with? Splendid.

    You're usually one of the more insightful posters.

    ETA: I don't want this to degenerate into a bitching session. I think it's an interesting topic and I've just been genuinely surprised with the tact people have taken in their reactions to criticisms made of U.S. political figures.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A: Republican candidates X, Y and Z hold worrying beliefs.

    B: Well the UK has dumb-asses, too / stop being a xenophobe / say that about black people.

    Stupendous debate - simply spiffing.

    If you go back and start reading the thread from the beginning I think you'll find that largely isn't the case. People generally stayed on topic and were offering more or less insightful opinions up until the 24th post and the posts which followed in response.
    Feel free to get it back on track at any point.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :nervous::crying::yuck::blush::crazyeyes:lol::wave:
    too right peeps:banghead::angel::shocking:
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