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Should I leave my Union

2

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    I guess that all I'm saying is that when public sector workers mention about them paying taxes for NHS/Fire/Ambulance etc, the tax paid back to the government is really kind of a rebate back to the government, and it is private business that drives the tax revenue of the country in effect.

    I think the idea is that the relationship should be symbiotic, the government employs people to maintain an environment in which its viable for businesses to operate, and by employing citizens business generates tax revenue that allows the government to protect the citizenship from economic hardship and ill health; the sector in which a person chooses to work shouldn't affect their employment rights.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    I haven't found PCS undemocratic at all, in my experience.

    If you don't want to strike, then don't. Nobody is forcing you to.

    I never said anyone is forcing me. But I really shouldn't have to mention this that unions don't work unless their members agree to act by the collective 'One out, the rest of you don't need to bother if you don't fancy it' isn't really a rallying cry.

    PCS is undemocratic in that it is salivating for a fight with Government, not as an employer, but because it doesn't like its politics. The leadership seem more interested in overthrowing current Ministers than anything else and are just looking for a legal excuse...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    You should read about some of the industrial action over DWP call centres, or cases of bullying...


    Yes, I can't wait to get my massive pension!

    The average public sector pension is around £5000-6000 (not my department though). Somebody on my pay band will be paying an extra £49 per month from my wages, working for longer and receiving less in the end. A pension is not a 'benefit' of a job, as it is something I am paying in to... Effectively, they're giving me a pay cut.

    Why should every worker not have a decent pension? Is it not incredibly fucked up that elderly people who have worked all their lives end up in poverty and die because they can't heat their home, or have shit health care?

    I'm dubious about the 5,000-6000 because it may be true, but it is not what is implied (that it is the full pension) many people get public sector pensions which knock down the average because they're either part time or they only worked a few years (my Dad gets a civl service pension for three years, which is counted in the average and I get 7 years army for example).

    Also I'm not striking for other public pensions, but to protect my exceedingly generous civil service one (which basically I controbute 1.5% of my salary*, can retire at 60 and get for every year worked get 1/80th of my final salary, + lump sum). I simply can't defend this in this day and age...

    And you mention people ending up in poverty - well they're not civil servants, but people who are paying their taxes to keep me in a great pension...

    * and strictly speaking its not a contribution, but to pay for my pension to be transferred to my wife if I die before her. For people not married when they leave they their contributins back on top of the lump sum
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    Can you not opt out of your pension an pay into your own? Oh wait, then you might not have the employer contributions!


    Jealous much?

    As for all this gold plated nonsense, I'll have been paying into my pension for 45 years when I retire. That gives me a lump sum of about £40k and an annual pension of £7000. It's a bit shit really.

    People in the private sector get less for 2 reasons, firstly hardly any of you pay into anything at all, or have even considered a pension and any contributions you do pay are just a token. Secondly, you don't have the balls to strike en-masse and because you don't the employers treat you like shit. And you blame us for that?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    Because the money that public sector workers pay in taxes towards these things, is money that the government already had to begin with!

    So what you're saying is, we should work for free? For the love of it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    you don't have the balls to strike en-masse and because you don't the employers treat you like shit. And you blame us for that?

    There are so many things wrong with this I don't even know where to start.

    I'd like to say this an average private sector worker on the whole issue: the majority of us are not rich bankers, we're just people earning a living however we can. A lot of us earn shit wages, a lot of us have shit benefits, we'll have to work til we're 68 (based on someone my age) and that's if we even still have a job with the number of companies folding at the moment. So PLEASE stop pointing the finger at us. We didn't destroy the economy, and it will be us who eventually help to rebuilt it. I didn't particularly begruge you your benefits initially (and yes, to whoever said it, any kind of company pension IS a benefit in these times), but if I have to hear one more time how you're paying for the indequacies of the the private sector, or how hard done by you are that you might possibly have to work to the same age of the rest of the country, or especially that the reason that we get shit all is that we don't have the balls to strike about it (if I went on strike, when I got back I wouldn't have a job) I will take your comparitively not that bad at all pensions and shove them up your collective arses :grump:
    So what you're saying is, we should work for free? For the love of it?

    No, I think he's saying you should earn less, but then pay no tax on it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kaff wrote: »
    There are so many things wrong with this I don't even know where to start.

    I'd like to say this an average private sector worker on the whole issue: the majority of us are not rich bankers, we're just people earning a living however we can. A lot of us earn shit wages, a lot of us have shit benefits, we'll have to work til we're 68 (based on someone my age) and that's if we even still have a job with the number of companies folding at the moment. So PLEASE stop pointing the finger at us. We didn't destroy the economy, and it will be us who eventually help to rebuilt it. I didn't particularly begruge you your benefits initially (and yes, to whoever said it, any kind of company pension IS a benefit in these times), but if I have to hear one more time how you're paying for the indequacies of the the private sector, or how hard done by you are that you might possibly have to work to the same age of the rest of the country, or especially that the reason that we get shit all is that we don't have the balls to strike about it (if I went on strike, when I got back I wouldn't have a job) I will take your comparitively not that bad at all pensions and shove them up your collective arses :grump:

    And I retort...

    We aren't bankers either. We didn't cause the financial meltdown. Not only are we now paying in loss of jobs, but also in pensions which mean we contribute more, for longer, with less to see for it at the end. This is like everyone else and we know that. The difference is that *we* will stand up for ourselves to retain the terms and conditions which both we and our employers signed up to when they employed us. The reason you get so pissed off at us striking is because it inconveniences you, thus proviing how effective and useful we are for the rest of the time. You wouldn't notice if the fashion designers went on strike (thanks you The Now Show!) but you sure as hell notice us when we are not there.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wasn't talking about striking. I was talking about the hostility I've seen towards the private sector from the public sector over this whole issue. You showed it right there. I'm not denying that there are many people in the public sector doing a valuable job, but rubbishing other people's jobs isn't going to help bolster public support. Maybe a surgeon is more valuable to society than a fashion designer, but that fashion designer is still earning a crust and putting food on their table. And maybe that particular fashion designer works for the company who manufacture that particular surgeon's scrubs and they would be operating naked without the designer? Far fetched example, I realise, but I am just trying to make a point.

    We are not trying to take away your pensions, the government are. I was sympathetic to your cause, but I am quickly losing it after all the stuff I'm reading atm. If you want to strike, strike, but leave us alone. We're no strangers to a spot of government shafting ourselves, you know!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and I'll say bankers didn't cause the financial meltdown - they were only the first sympton of it (it was caused by an overheating economy and by China deciding to spend a bit more rather than save* and prolonged in cases such as Greece and the UK by a mismatch between what's coming in tax and what's going out. It's not a case of the Government deciding it wants to get rid of penison for shit and giggles, but the fact we've got a deficit which is out of control and the evidence is that taxation is at its limits.

    But yeah, I'm a public sector worker and if I hear one more time about how terribly we're paid or that the private sector are treated so much better I will scream. Too many of us are cossetted and refuse to change or adapt


    * and I'm not blaming the Chinese - because they decided to enjoy some of the fruits of their labour
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not convinced that the striking public sector have necessarily thought through their other options.

    Currently, the government bank rolls the public sector pension programme - which blatantly isn't fair on anyone. Shifting the goal posts on someones existing pension scheme isn't exactly fair either.

    So the other option would be for public sector pensions to follow what a vast number of private sector pensions have done and close the scheme in its current state. Leave everyone with the pension they have currently accumalated and move onto a defined contribution scheme, which by definition pretty much are self supporting.

    But that would be an even worse deal than the one currently on the table (and the same deal as most private company pensions now offer).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kaff wrote: »
    I wasn't talking about striking. I was talking about the hostility I've seen towards the private sector from the public sector over this whole issue. You showed it right there. I'm not denying that there are many people in the public sector doing a valuable job, but rubbishing other people's jobs isn't going to help bolster public support. Maybe a surgeon is more valuable to society than a fashion designer, but that fashion designer is still earning a crust and putting food on their table. And maybe that particular fashion designer works for the company who manufacture that particular surgeon's scrubs and they would be operating naked without the designer? Far fetched example, I realise, but I am just trying to make a point.

    Sorry the point I was trying to make is that the public sector do a valuable job which has a massive impact on our daily lives. Massive. I'm not hostile to the private sector, I know that the tax take from them (especially) funds the private sector. I'm not blind or stupid.

    However, when that fashion designed goes on strike you wouldn't get the massive media hype that you are now, you don't hear compaints about their admin support etc. You absolutely wouldn't get people moaning about the inconvenience to their daily lives. The public sector is abused at every turn by politicians, the media and the public at large. Yet one day of strike action and suddenly people realise how inconvenient life becomes when a small proportion of those public worked aren't around.

    So, is there support being shown, is there recognition of the valued role within the community? No. Is there recognition that we are all facing cuts and increased costs? No Is there recognition that we all pay into our pension pots, that we also all pay tax (just like everyone else)? No

    All I see is envy about the perception that we have a good pension scheme. That isn't the case for everyone. Rather than fight for the same, the private sector want everyone dropped lower. Talk about cutting your nose off. Why are private sector pension pots being cut? It isn't the public sector calling for it... yet the same cannot be said the other way around.

    I accept that I am talking in generalisms here, but it works both ways. All workers are in this together. Shame that we don't realise that and support each other, but rather fall for the media and Govt "divide and conquer" approach.

    NB As a final point it's worth noting that one publically funded pension scheme isn't being cut at all, isn't facing the same increase in employee contributions, nor an extension to the age at which you can draw on it. Whose is that? (clue, you have to be elected into Parliament to qualify).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You're not comparing like with like (and frankly I doubt one person in a thousand notices if the central civil service is on strike). Almost by defintion the public sector is a monopoly provider, we're part of a conspiracy against the laity. And for the last fourteen years the monopoly position has been abused.

    There needs to be a public sector, but it needs to be more about providing a fair service for a fair price and less about ripping off the taxpayer and stuffing our greedy faces in the trough. Perhaps if the public sector hadn't rubbed its hands with greedy glee when Brown fucked over everyones else pensions http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/mar/31/money.freedomofinformation
    the public might be more supportive. But the time for calling for solidarity was in 1997, not 2011.

    And yes MP's pensions should be changed, but the fact they're not doesn't mean mine shouldn;t be to provide a fairer system.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm happy to have a debate about a "fair" pension system. I certainly think that it should include the private sector.

    My gripe is that the compaints about the strike are based on envy and inconvenience. Not affordability, not whether the cut/change is as much about ideology as affordability, not whether rights (or rather terms of employment) should just be changed on the whim of an employer.

    You are correct about the central civil service strike is actually being noticed and yet, from what you have said here, their pension is better than the teachers/ general public sector.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kaff wrote: »
    I wasn't talking about striking. I was talking about the hostility I've seen towards the private sector from the public sector over this whole issue.

    Have you read any papers recently? Every other story is about how we're dragging this country down, how we're better off than everyone in the private sector, how the state of the nation is our fault.

    The dig at the private sector isn't a dig at you, it's a dig at the bosses, the banks, the media. Those who are using their political clout to try and put us under foot. Those who think that whilst they're entitled to a nice fat million pound bonus every year, God forbid we want a few grand a year for when we retire. Add to them the legions of the ignorant, who think I'll be given a check for hundreds of thousands when I go, and you wonder why we're all having a dig at the private sector?

    On top of the pensions, you've got the pay cuts. I've just been told I could be facing a pay cut of at least £3000 a year, add to that the £800 a year increase in my pension contributions, tax rises, petrol rises, pay freezes. And you're surprised I'm not more than a little fucked off?

    I do my job because I love doing it, I want to help people, but if I can't afford to pay my mortgage (a mortgage based on my current wage, not one that is nearly £4000 less) then I'll be gone. You'll find that a lot of other people will be gone too.
    Yeah, I'm sure people will do my job for less money, good luck to them, but when organisations start haemoraging their longest serving staff, you're going to have problems.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I thought the financial issues the country faces were caused by private citizens taking loans (in many cases) which they knew they could not afford. Also the UK govt spending more than it makes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    However, when that fashion designed goes on strike you wouldn't get the massive media hype that you are now, you don't hear compaints about their admin support etc. You absolutely wouldn't get people moaning about the inconvenience to their daily lives. The public sector is abused at every turn by politicians, the media and the public at large. Yet one day of strike action and suddenly people realise how inconvenient life becomes when a small proportion of those public worked aren't around.

    This isn't exclusive to the public sector though. Maybe no one would notice if the fashion industry walked out, and God knows Joe Public wouldn't give a crap if I walked out of my job, but what if all the private nursery workers went on strike? A friend of a friend works as a private nursery nurse. She earns somewhere in the region of £12,000 a year, gets 4 weeks holiday a year, no pension, no maternity pay, no sick pay. Is her contribution to society any less than a teacher or a nurse? People would very much notice if she went on strike. And yet no one gave a shit when the government effectively gave her a pay cut by abolishing her 10p tax rate, and no one gave a shit as her pensionable age gradually crept up to 68.

    I do have sympathy for the people who are striking, and I agree that it's shit that something they thought they had may be taken away, I do. But I would ask, does the teacher I saw on the news holding a 'fair pensions for all' sign think it's fair that I'll have to work til I'm nearly 70 to fund her retirement at 60? Or by 'all' are we just talking 'all teachers'?

    Are we really all in this together? Really?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Have you read any papers recently? Every other story is about how we're dragging this country down, how we're better off than everyone in the private sector, how the state of the nation is our fault.

    I try to avoid reading papers. They're hateful. But the news industry is, as a rule, anti-strike because their sales plummet whenever there's industrial action going on. Don't take their words and think that they come from the majority, because I can tell you that they don't.

    I realise when you think private sector you think fat cat bosses snarling about in their Ferraris, but 95% of private sector workers aren't in that position at all. They're the people at the bottom of the ladder, getting shat on over and over again, double teamed by the goverment AND those very fat cat bosses that you hate. :thumb:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    I thought the financial issues the country faces were caused by private citizens taking loans (in many cases) which they knew they could not afford. Also the UK govt spending more than it makes.


    A private citizen taking out a £150,000 mortgage out instead of a £125,000 and defaulting on it, is a drop in the ocean compared to the billions that were lost by financial speculators, commercial bankers in the City and our latest foray into the middle east.

    Kaff, I know the lowly workers aren't to blame, it is the bosses, but the media are the ones fuelling this.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    A private citizen taking out a £150,000 mortgage out instead of a £125,000 and defaulting on it, is a drop in the ocean compared to the billions that were lost by financial speculators, commercial bankers in the City and our latest foray into the middle east.

    Kaff, I know the lowly workers aren't to blame, it is the bosses, but the media are the ones fuelling this.

    Er... its millions of private citizens defaulting, not just in the UK, but abroad as well. The problem is now also not the city, or not in the way you are claiming, but the deficit between what comes in and what is going out.

    To be honest as 'lowly paid worker' (and you're not - you're well over the global average and live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world' you should probably be getting down on your knees and kissing the feet of the greedy fat cats and financial speculators who are basically funding you with their taxes...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Flashman's Ghost, do you honestly believe that the "speculators and bankers" are subsidising the rest of the nation with their taxes?

    Were Vodafone subsidising the rest of the nation when they wined and dined Dave Hartnett into letting them off a £7 billion tax bill. To put £7 billion into context, that is the total saving that the Treasury expect to achieve due to the welfare cuts to 2014. £7 billion would buy a lot of hospitals and teachers and would buy a lot of care places for elderly people. I'd go so far as to say that the people seeing their DLA getting scrapped are subsidising Vodafone.

    The same cosy deals have been made with Goldman Sachs, GlaxoSmithKline and several others. Private Eye's full of examples.

    And that's just tax that is legally owed. The banks are allowed to offset previous losses against current profits, meaning that Barclays paid £120 million tax last year. Lloyds Banking Group and Guardian Media Group paid nowt. Private equity companies are allowed to offset interest payments towards leveraged buyouts against profits, meaning that the hedge fund "speculators" at Boots, for example, end up bragging that they pay less tax than their cleaner.

    As Warren Buffett said, class war is waging and the rich are winning. The wealthiest people have actually increased their wealth since the start of the recession. They're all right, the CEOs and the fat cats have their pensions and their share options. It's the poor sods on minimum wage who don't.

    kaff, you're falling into the typical trap of blaming those who have marginally more than you, rather than blaming those who have significantly more than you. You say you'd be sacked if you went on strike; you almost were for daring to become pregnant. I'd wager that your boss has a nice car and a nice house and a nice salary and a nice pension. Instead of blaming the teacher who is earning significantly less than many of her university peers, how about blaming the fat cats who thieve for themselves and leave nothing for the rest of us? Your boss can afford to earn a bit less and give a bit more to you. My boss is pleading poverty on the thick end of £350,000 a year in salary, pensions and perks. There's plenty of cake for him so why the fuck should I do without? His salary's not being cut, his pension's not being cut, it's MY salary and pension that are being cut. Something's not quite right.

    FWIW I'm a member of UCU and I intend to keep it that way. I want my trade union to be belligerent and I'll be the first one on the picket line when we're called out. I've voted yes to strike action.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    kaff, you're falling into the typical trap of blaming those who have marginally more than you, rather than blaming those who have significantly more than you. You say you'd be sacked if you went on strike; you almost were for daring to become pregnant. I'd wager that your boss has a nice car and a nice house and a nice salary and a nice pension. Instead of blaming the teacher who is earning significantly less than many of her university peers, how about blaming the fat cats who thieve for themselves and leave nothing for the rest of us? Your boss can afford to earn a bit less and give a bit more to you. My boss is pleading poverty on the thick end of £350,000 a year in salary, pensions and perks. There's plenty of cake for him so why the fuck should I do without? His salary's not being cut, his pension's not being cut, it's MY salary and pension that are being cut. Something's not quite right.

    I'm not blaming anyone. Like I said, I understand their reasons for striking, and I'd be pissed off too.

    What I do object to is the notion that everyone in the private sector is either a greedy fat cat bastard or does a stupid, shit, pointless job that no one really needs doing, and lump this all into a faceless 'private sector' to point the finger at and lay the blame on. And I also object to the notion that this is fairness for all. If you're out for yourself, that's fine. Embrace it. If I thought there was a way that I could get a better deal for myself, I'd probably do it too. And if you were in my position, would you be fine with the fact that the government has increased my pensionable age to 68 while at the same time allowing for the provision of taxes to allow others to retire 8 years earlier? Or is it ok for them to maintain a system like that cause I do one of those stupid, shit, pointless jobs that no one really needs doing?

    And interestingly, although I would definitely agree that my boss is a massive shit, he's actually 63, has 3 private pensions (no company pension) and since they all hit the skids along with the rest of the economy, he still can't afford to retire until he reaches state pension age. Of course, by 'afford', there are elements of retaining the lifestyle to which he's become accustomed, etc, but still, I do have to say that the cuts have been felt all the way through our industry. He has had the same pay cuts and/or below inflation pay rises that we have. Obviously he still has a lot more left than I do, though!


    ETA, an example of the kind of encounter that is pissing me off (massively paraphrased/exaggerated, obv):

    Teacher friend: Omg, they are taking our pensions!
    Me: oh no, that's shit. Know how you feel, I haven't even got a pension.
    Teacher friend: Yeah, but we're important!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    As for all this gold plated nonsense, I'll have been paying into my pension for 45 years when I retire. That gives me a lump sum of about £40k and an annual pension of £7000. It's a bit shit really.

    Aw, didums. That's an awful lot more than what others get. My boss (who is 51) will only get her basic pension when she retires. I'm sure she'll love to get what you're getting.

    I have no sympathy for these people who moan about not getting much pension. These people will be 60/65 when they retire. I will be 68 when I retire.
    Secondly, you don't have the balls to strike en-masse

    Actually, it's because unlike some people, they don't put themselves first and actually care about the impact on others. Has anyone actually thought about the impact on others?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kaff wrote: »
    What I do object to is the notion that everyone in the private sector is either a greedy fat cat bastard or does a stupid, shit, pointless job that no one really needs doing, and lump this all into a faceless 'private sector' to point the finger at and lay the blame on.

    That's a straw man if ever I saw one. I don't think many people do think that and the ones who do are idiots.

    The private sector is very much about the rich few creaming the profit off the poor many. That's what the whole private sector ethos is: paying the staff rock bottom wages and charging top dollar prices for everything. That's why you have care home staff on national minimum wage whilst the fat cat thieves at Southern Cross can pay themselves £500,000 bonuses.

    My point is that, instead of blaming public sector workers for daring to protect their own rights, you should be asking why the poorest people have to retire later, pay more for their pensions and get less in return. And the first person to say "the current economic climate" should slap themselves with a trout and go and ask themselves why the richest people have got richer in the last three years.

    Instead of shouting at the teacher for wanting to get a decent pension at 65, you should be asking why you'll get a shit pension at 68. Instead of shouing at the social worker for wanting to get a decent pension at 60, you should be shouting at thieving fat cats like Fred Goodwin who retired at 55 with a pension pot of about £3,000,000 a year. There's plenty of money and don't let some Bullingdon Club fat cat thief like Cameron tell you otherwise.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Melian wrote: »
    Aw, didums. That's an awful lot more than what others get. My boss (who is 51) will only get her basic pension when she retires. I'm sure she'll love to get what you're getting.

    I have no sympathy for these people who moan about not getting much pension. These people will be 60/65 when they retire. I will be 68 when I retire.

    I looked again at my pension forcast, and I was off by 3 years. I actually retire at 68. When and if I survive until my retirement I'll have been in the police for 48 years. So before you get all insulting about "these" (by which you mean "you") people just remember I'll have been paying into my pension a higher proportion of my wage than your boss obviously has been if all she'll get is state/basic pension for a hell of a lot longer.

    Actually, it's because unlike some people, they don't put themselves first and actually care about the impact on others. Has anyone actually thought about the impact on others?

    Ah, another one who thinks we should just lie down and let the government fuck us over. I serve the public day in and day out as part of my job, I love my job and I care deeply about the people I've been serving most of my working life. I've never gone on strike before, for that very reason. But that strike was over working conditions. So yes, I have thought about the impact it would have.

    I do a difficult job in difficult circumstances. I took on that job, signed a contract and accepted my wage along with the promise of a pension.
    Now the government want to pay me significantly less, make me work more hours and make me pay more into a pension for the same amount. And you think I should just let them? Then you have the fucking cheek to say "aww diddums" when I say I'm not happy about it?

    If that's the sort of reaction we get from people we serve, then why the hell do you think I should give a toss about the impact us going on strike would have? If you represent the people, and you think we're paid too much, shouldn't get a decent pension and should work more hours for less money then I invite you to see how long you can live without us for.


    You're looking at our pay and conditions with jealousy. And instead of thinking about what you can do to improve your own situation, you're thinking about how you can drag us down to your level.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's a straw man if ever I saw one. I don't think many people do think that and the ones who do are idiots.

    Not really, as I keep saying, I am not against the cause and I am not blaming anyone. You don't think that, but you may be giving a bit too much credit to some (not all, not even most, but enough that it has pissed me off) of your fellow workers, as I have heard no end of it this week.

    Anyhoo, I am going to bow out of this thread now, as we are obviously singing from different hymn sheets, so I'll just say this as an open statement and then leave it: if you want support from workers in other sectors, you are more likely to get it if you don't slag them and their jobs off. That's all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    So before you get all insulting about "these" (by which you mean "you") people just remember I'll have been paying into my pension a higher proportion of my wage than your boss obviously has been if all she'll get is state/basic pension for a hell of a lot longer.

    She won't get a company pension because she's changed jobs a lot.

    Oh, and you'll be getting more than £7000 a year - or have you forgotten about your state pension, the maximum is around £5.2k per year.

    You are a hell of a lot better off than others who work for the same amount of years.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kaff wrote: »
    you may be giving a bit too much credit to some (not all, not even most, but enough that it has pissed me off) of your fellow workers, as I have heard no end of it this week.

    Possibly. I'm not sure. I can only really go on what my trade union- UCU- have had to say on the subject. And they've been pretty open and honest about it all. They want to know why, for instance, over 100 teaching and support staff have to be made redundant at Newcastle College not two months after the principal of the college awarded herself a 30% pay rise (taking it to a recession-busting £235,000 a year).

    Maybe UCU, given their demographic, are just more intelligent than the other lot ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Melian wrote: »
    She won't get a company pension because she's changed jobs a lot.

    Then she's quite clearly not prepared for the future as most people have failed to do. I took out my pension at a young age because it was secure and that was the advice I was given. I could have done what some of my colleagues did and invested it instead. I chose the "less money, more security" option, or now it seems less money, less security.
    You are a hell of a lot better off than others who work for the same amount of years.

    Jealousy again. Instead of fighting to improve your own situation you've decided it's easier to just make it worse for us? And then you complain when we do fight back?

    Nice.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Melian wrote: »
    Aw, didums. That's an awful lot more than what others get. My boss (who is 51) will only get her basic pension when she retires. I'm sure she'll love to get what you're getting.

    I have no sympathy for these people who moan about not getting much pension. These people will be 60/65 when they retire. I will be 68 when I retire.

    I'll be 68 too, unless it changes again between now and then - and I have already been working for over 20 years - during that time I have been paying into a pension on an understanding which is now being changed unilaterally. However, that isn't really what I wanted to comment on, it was the "aw diddums" comment.

    Instead of envy and arguing that everyone show be dropped down to the lowest level, why not ask yourself how the public sector workers have secured slightly better salaries and pensions. Why not ask why private sector pensions shouldn't be raised to the same level?

    This wasn;t achieved through a benevolent Govt offering all sorts of perks. It was because the public sector workers have fought for years to get these rights and then to maintain them They organise and stick together to a greater extent.

    As I said early, people bitching about how one sector has it better than another are falling into a trap set by the politicians (who want to put down the public sector) and the media (who want to protect the interests of their well paid editors and barons)... it's about dividing the workers. It seems to be working.
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