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When is it ok to talk about Muslim homophobia?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
In light of the risk of being called Islamophobic, the idea that there is a 'Muslim culture of homophobia' is usually disregard.

Johann Hari has written an article here that suggests it's time we called it.

It's interesting to read this from the prospective of an exceptionally liberal commentator who has, as he says, called out anti-Muslim groups on a number of occasions.

The only point I feel compelled to comment on is the survey he quotes that "0% of Muslims find homosexuality acceptable" (my paraphrase). That view is expressed anonymously on paper and doesn't mean that 0% of Muslims will interact with and be friendly to gay people. I know he wasn't trying to imply that but I wasn't sure the point was clearly made.

I know East London pretty well and I've never been as comfortable being open there (parts of Shoreditch aside) as I am almost anywhere else in the city.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Isn't there a certain amount of homophobia in each of the major religions though?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Isn't there a certain amount of homophobia in each of the major religions though?

    Traditionally, yes I would have said so. But these lovely folk, for example, have relatively little clout in Christianity and most Christian individuals are more liberal than church spokespeople.

    Not that I haven't had my fair share of crap from Christians, far from it, but I'm not aware of specifically Christian / Jewish / Buddhist / whatever attacks in the UK.

    That doesn't mean they don't happen, of course, are we just witnessing a media bias?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Given that the couple refusing access to their B&B and the couple refused permission to adopt are lauded as victims...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Given that the couple refusing access to their B&B and the couple refused permission to adopt are lauded as victims...

    Yes, fair point it is the same issue. And even the Guardian ran an article on protecting marriage from the gays this week* :yuck:

    *probably to balance the argument, in fairness
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i think its ok to say that islam is homophobic, but im not sure its especially more homophobic than most other main religions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would contend that, according to Christianity, homosexuality is not a sin. Though, my analysis doesn't detract from mainstream society.

    That being said, even in most forms of Mainstream Christianity, adherents don't advocate the killing of homosexuals, whereas sha'ria law absolutely commands it and its actual adherents in dar al Islam support this, whereas its adherents in dar al harb avoid the issue like the plague.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    in certain countries for sure. Saudia arabia theyd stone you to death for it.
    I think in orthodox judaism homosexuality is a capital offence too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Isn't there a certain amount of homophobia in each of the major religions though?

    I don't think this is true at all. The three religions you would look at when discussing homophobia are Islam, Christianity and Judaism, which all have their roots in exactly the same text. I think most religions and cultures will place a lot of emphasis on some sort of family unit, and as such, homosexuality was generally ignored at best and discouraged at worst (long-term, at least). But in order for the violent hatred of homosexuality, and the idea that homosexuals should be killed, I can't say I've ever seen it outside of the Abrahamic religions (and therefore in cultures where social values are heavily influenced by these religions). Certainly the force behind the rampant homophobia in Africa (which is a relatively new phenomenon) is American Evangelical Christianity, which is anything but an insignificant group of wackos.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To call a spade a spade is often to court controversy these days.

    This thread appears to be developing in the typical cookie cutter direction all debates involved with the criticism of religion go. If you replace Xtian, Muslim and Jews with Tom, Dick and Harry, the absurdity becomes patently obvious:

    A: Dude, Dick came in and did a massive Cleveland Steamer on my chest last night. It was seriously grim and I'm angry about it.

    B: But Harry urinated on Tom in his sleep that one time.

    A: That's nice and everything, but I'm telling you about the shit Dick took on my chest...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have mixed feelings about the article...

    The statistics are a bit like... What the hell?

    So no British Muslims find homosexuality acceptable? There are no gay Muslims, gay rights campaigners who are Muslims, or Muslim friends of gay people? :confused:

    And the Muslim group that was involved with the attacks... Is that Islam related or are there factors such as gang warfare involved?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    And the Muslim group that was involved with the attacks... Is that Islam related or are there factors such as gang warfare involved?

    The statistics are indeed odd we don't know if the study was self-selecting or truly representative.

    As for the attacks, I think the honest answer is that no one knows. I've spent a lot of time in that pub and never been aware of gangs based in or around in (or at all in the LGBT community) so I would assume that the perpetrators' stated motivation was their faith.

    These stickers have been appearing around East London recently and obviously claim Islam as a justification but verbally or physically violent homophobia is about using scripture to justify a fear rather than itself being rooted in faith.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    And the Muslim group that was involved with the attacks... Is that Islam related or are there factors such as gang warfare involved?

    Islam's pretty clear on homosexuality. And they're not allegorical stones.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To call a spade a spade is often to court controversy these days.

    This thread appears to be developing in the typical cookie cutter direction all debates involved with the criticism of religion go. If you replace Xtian, Muslim and Jews with Tom, Dick and Harry, the absurdity becomes patently obvious:

    A: Dude, Dick came in and did a massive Cleveland Steamer on my chest last night. It was seriously grim and I'm angry about it.

    B: But Harry urinated on Tom in his sleep that one time.

    A: That's nice and everything, but I'm telling you about the shit Dick took on my chest...

    Yeah but if everyone is shitting and pissing on each other, then its not fair to single out Dick
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah but if everyone is shitting and pissing on each other, then its not fair to single out Dick

    You wouldn't extend that courtesy to anything else. If your house was burgled and the police's idea of a legitimate response wasn't to deal with your issue, but to instead tell you about Bill who'd been burgled a few days previous, you'd be rightly pissed off.

    Dick pooped on my chest. My beef is with Dick. Tom may well be have pissed on Harry the other week, but that isn't necessary and sufficient to excuse, explain or validate Dick's behaviour. It may well, in fact, have precisely fuck all to with Dick's behaviour.

    You put religion in the mix and people behave completely differently.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wouldn't expect them to only investigate Bill's burglary either.

    The point being made here is that it's isn't Muslim that are homophobic but that it's actually more endemic than that.

    Rather than just investigate how Islam has homophobic elements we should address it whenever it raises it's ugly head.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wouldn't expect them to only investigate Bill's burglary either.

    The point being made here is that it's isn't Muslim that are homophobic but that it's actually more endemic than that.

    Rather than just investigate how Islam has homophobic elements we should address it whenever it raises it's ugly head.
    It could also be possible that some groups of people are more willing to express homophobic views than others.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wouldn't expect them to only investigate Bill's burglary either.

    I think you misunderstand the analogy - which is easy enough to do as it's largely about pissing and shitting! :D The point was that you wouldn’t expect them to address your grievances with the grievances of another person.

    There are two things, broadly speaking, that happen when the criticism of a particular theology crops up. Firstly, people immediately downplay the role religion has played in the matter that brought about the criticism - I've even seen it done with the video tapes of suicide bombers who are explicitly on record as saying their motivations are religious. The dialogue will inevitably end up being permeated by 'you need to look at the socio-economic factors, not the religious ones'. Now I'm not naive enough to think that religious belief is ever likely to be a sole cause, but to see people scramble so predictably to dismiss it as a contributing factor is laughable. Secondly, invariably, another shitty religion or religious idea will be invoked. As if the existence of one douche is negated by the existence of another.
    The point being made here is that it's isn't Muslim that are homophobic but that it's actually more endemic than that.

    Rather than just investigate how Islam has homophobic elements we should address it whenever it raises it's ugly head.

    The topic is 'When is it OK to talk about Muslim homophobia?', and predictably the answer seems to be: it's not.

    Being critical of religion always ends up with people equivocating and/or trying to find all religions as equally misguided or misinterpreted or whatever; all the time avoiding the screamingly obvious fact that not all religions are created equal; and certainly not all over them are being practised with equal fervour and consideration the fact that we're now in the twenty-first century.

    Why not investigate Islamically-based homophobia to help understand it in wider context? It seems like people are worried that it’s impossible to criticise doctrine and the implementation of doctrine without becoming bigoted and applying ideas to ‘all Muslims’.

    And don't get me started on the ubiquitous term 'Islamophobia'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    maybe because islam already receives a lot of flack these days. Not saying ALL of it is undeserved, but if youre going to pick it apart, then at least choose something that pretty much all the other religions dont do as well.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think you misunderstand the analogy - which is easy enough to do as it's largely about pissing and shitting! :D The point was that you wouldn’t expect them to address your grievances with the grievances of another person.

    Oh, I got it and no I wouldn't expect them to tell me it was all right because Bill got robbed too. But that isn't what is happening here either. What *is* happening is that acknowledgement is made to the homophobia in Islam but it's noted that it's more prevalent and so we should address it wherever it is found, for whatever excuses people make for being homophobic.

    In the same way that I would expect them to treat both crimes seriously and not concentrate on the one perpetrated on Bill because the police are prejudiced against that criminal but not mine.
    The topic is 'When is it OK to talk about Muslim homophobia?', and predictably the answer seems to be: it's not.

    The answer is that it is okay to talk about it. However, it's not okay to talk about it in isolation because that then just smacks of racism and not anti-homophobia.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The answer is that it is okay to talk about it. However, it's not okay to talk about it in isolation because that then just smacks of racism and not anti-homophobia.

    I think we're getting down to the crux of it: it's perfectly fine to talk about a religion's attitudes towards homosexuals, abortion, suicide etc., without invoking other religions. The conversation may well be improved and made more well-rounded by being able to draw comparison between one religion and another, but it isn't, and shouldn't be, necessary in order to avoid being labelled a bigot or an Islamophobe.

    There does seem to be prevalent in the discourse surrounding religion a misapplied sense of fair mindedness. Factually speaking Islam either is or isn't doctrinally more disparaging (to put it politely) towards homosexuals than Hinduism, for example; the interpretation and application of Islam's doctrines is also either more detrimental to homosexuals, or it isn't. You can use other regions as yard sticks, but that wasn't what's been happening: other religions are cited in an attempt to dissipate criticism of a particular religion.

    Also, you can't be racist with regard to an ideology. You could be ignorant of it, or perhaps bigoted towards it, but that doesn't make you a racist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When I see articles about other religion's views on homophobia then I would agree. Tends not to happen.

    Unless it's to portray their homophobic behaviour with them as victims.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When I see articles about other religion's views on homophobia then I would agree. Tends not to happen.

    I just can't get on board with that attitude. I'm not going to cease talking to my friends (or on here) about Libya and Col. Gaddafi until Robert Mugabe gets more airtime.

    Also: The Christian couple not being able to adopt because of their backwards views on homosexuality has been BBC front page news today.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The article in the OP was written by Johann Hari in The Guardian. I'm pretty sure the Guardian are pretty hot on criticising homophobia originating in Christianity too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The article in the OP was written by Johann Hari in The Guardian. I'm pretty sure the Guardian are pretty hot on criticising homophobia originating in Christianity too.

    Oh, they have their moments as pointed out earlier in this thread >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/feb/22/gay-marriage-civil-partnership
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I just can't get on board with that attitude. I'm not going to cease talking to my friends (or on here) about Libya and Col. Gaddafi until Robert Mugabe gets more airtime.

    Yeah, because that's comparable with homophobia :rolleyes:
    Also: The Christian couple not being able to adopt because of their backwards views on homosexuality has been BBC front page news today.

    Gone now so I cannot read it. Was it critical of Christianity's view on homosexuality or a report of a court case?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Gone now so I cannot read it. Was it critical of Christianity's view on homosexuality or a report of a court case?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-12598896

    It has to be more of the former than the latter as there was not much of a court case to report on. (A view seemingly shared by the presiding judges on the day).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah, because that's comparable with homophobia :rolleyes:

    The comparison isn't the subject matter; the comparison is the attitude of shutting down one area of discussion because you believe another one isn't getting enough airplay. And tacit in your idea of equal coverage is the notion that all religions are in some way equal - that you can't talk about one independently of another.
    Gone now so I cannot read it. Was it critical of Christianity's view on homosexuality or a report of a court case?

    The BBC article was largely a report of a court case, but you know that's not the point. The point is the discussion that it provokes; front page news gets people talking: op-eds, message boards, blogs, Question Time etc.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The article in the OP was written by Johann Hari in The Guardian. I'm pretty sure the Guardian are pretty hot on criticising homophobia originating in Christianity too.

    It was from Attitude, and Johann Hari writes usually for the Independent.

    But your point stands, although the Guardian is pretty good at balance in Comment is Free.

    The Guardian, I think, are much harder on Christianity than other faiths. That could reflect that nature of the debates at the moment (marriage, the B&B owners, a couple denied the right to foster, etc.)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    mdmridha wrote: »
    the rule of nature

    There's no such thing. And yet this was still the least incorrect thing that you said. So I hope you can stop thinking the wrong way and get well soon too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    mdmridha wrote: »
    Why you are homosexual? You are violating the rule of nature if you are not believing in God. Can you break any rules like will you try to be alive without food or without Oxygen? no you cant. When anyone become abnormal then his choices starting to be abnormal too. So don't think in a wrong way and get well soon.I am not here taking the position against homosexual people but saying them that please think of your life and say are you normal with everything? I think you will get there some problems.

    Fuck right off. There's more wrong with ignorant people like you than with gay people like me or piccolo
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