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Should people be put in a cell if police put them under the mental health act?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
Should people be put in a cell if police put them under the mental health act?

i would love to hear your views. personally when its happened to me it's been very traumatic and i'm left with no dignity. I still have flash backs.

However, are you one that agrees on it- that it should happen
? my arguement is why dont they go to hospital as a place of safety?

Is it a case that we need to make room for more 136 (the name of the dentention) suite's?

is it fair or reasonable for police to ask for a strip search- even if they are above 18 and classified as an adult?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hey brunettebarbie - was thinking about moving this in to Politics and debate - what do you think ?

    Might get some more replies there :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    go for it :yes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    At the hospital there are cells with armed police outside. I've been put in there a few times but I don't really mind as if I'm unwell I'd much rather the privacy of the cell than be in view of other people attending the hospital. The armed police make it a bit scary though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why should police not ask for a strip search just because someones over 18? Does that somehow make them less likely to hurt themselves or others?

    I think if someone is detained for their own safety/safety of others then they should be put somewhere that they can be safe. Now ideally that would be a hospital with all the required facilities and staffing and security, but in reality that may well not be available and in that case, a police cell is probably the next best option.

    So I don't see why not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why should police not ask for a strip search just because someones over 18? Does that somehow make them less likely to hurt themselves or others?

    I think if someone is detained for their own safety/safety of others then they should be put somewhere that they can be safe. Now ideally that would be a hospital with all the required facilities and staffing and security, but in reality that may well not be available and in that case, a police cell is probably the next best option.

    So I don't see why not.

    I see what you are saying but also to bear in mind, do the police in your eyes have the right to be forceful into getting a strip search done, expecially on young people? is this the best way and how can you fully justify it?

    with someone at the stage of being detained they are vunerable so why respond by putting them with others that are there because they've broken the law?

    Why do we not have enough 136 suites to ensure that a detained person is in the correct hands? (these 136 suites for those who don't know are inside a psychiatric hospital away from the wards.)

    there is being 'kept safe' and there is being 'treated like a criminal.'
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I see what you are saying but also to bear in mind, do the police in your eyes have the right to be forceful into getting a strip search done, expecially on young people? is this the best way and how can you fully justify it?

    How you justify it is pretty straight forward - it's exactly because someone is vulnerable that you need to search them. There's no point in detaining someone for their own safety and then leaving them with something that they can hurt themselves with.

    Police stations are generally reasonably well equipped with cells, and there are lots of police stations, there are far fewer pysch hospitals. That means that in a lot of cases cells will be far more readily avaliable than a suitable detention facility in a pysch hospital.

    As far as I know police cells are all individual cells, so it's not really like the person is being put with other criminals.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's no point in detaining someone for their own safety and then leaving them with something that they can hurt themselves with.

    This is how it works in hospital though - they search you and your things but they aren't legally allowed to remove anything from inside your body without consent, the mental health act doesn't cover this. I've been sectioned and put in hospital with a vagina full of razors blades, they have been made aware of this but legally they have no right to force surgery on me to remove them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I see what you are saying but also to bear in mind, do the police in your eyes have the right to be forceful into getting a strip search done, expecially on young people? is this the best way and how can you fully justify it?

    What should they do instead? Should the person being detained not be searched and be allowed to keep sharp objects or whatever with them? Being an adult / over 18 should have nothing to do with it. Or are you suggesting that someone under 18 is more of a danger to themselves?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not saying at all not to search the individual but there shouldn't be space for forcefull searching where they remove your clothes and you have little or no say in it due to either because you are above the age of 18 and do not need social services/parents to give the go ahead. Also pysically restraining you to search you- not very digified.

    The police in my opinion, need training to re-think their way in managing a vunerable young person/adult under 136 of the Mental Health Act. Then from that support these people by how they are presented.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Melian wrote: »
    Being an adult / over 18 should have nothing to do with it. Or are you suggesting that someone under 18 is more of a danger to themselves?



    Age doesn't have much difference yet when you are under age and in police custody, they must get further consent befor doing a strip search. So i'm not suggesting one younger or older will hurt themselves more, i'm just looking at it from a different perspective.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Police stations are generally reasonably well equipped with cells, and there are lots of police stations, there are far fewer pysch hospitals. That means that in a lot of cases cells will be far more readily avaliable than a suitable detention facility in a pysch hospital.

    As far as I know police cells are all individual cells, so it's not really like the person is being put with other criminals.

    You go through the same routine as you would if you were arrested (apart from fingerprinting and of course its only one to a cell.)

    okay, so if you had the control would you rather send young people of our next generation into a cell or ask our government for more access to a 136 suite?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If the police found you with a suspected broken arm, I think they'd take you to hospital; if they find you with a suspected broken brain they lock you up in a police cell? sounds fucked up to me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If they find you with a suspected broken arm, they'd take you to a hospital that had the provision to deal with it. Until they could do that they'd put you somewhere sensible where you would be warm, dry and protected from movement so your arm won't come to any further harm.

    If they suspect your brain is broken they do the equivalent.

    More 136 facilities would be ideal, but then so would enough community care provision to not need them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If they find you with a suspected broken arm, they'd take you to a hospital that had the provision to deal with it. Until they could do that they'd put you somewhere sensible where you would be warm, dry and protected from movement so your arm won't come to any further harm.

    or, they might throw you on the floor, stomp on your broken arm, laugh when you cry out, then lock you up without letting you know whether they're going to get you medical attention at all... they do be pigs after all...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    OK. Well sticking with 'system says' land.........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    if they find you with a suspected broken brain they lock you up in a police cell? sounds fucked up to me.

    So when all the beds in the mental health wards are full what do you suggest we do with people who are trying to kill themselves? Leave them to it? Or maybe put them in a cell for a couple of hours that admittedly isn't the Ritz, but at least it's a place of safety whilst we try and get them to professional help.

    Out of interest how many mental health beds do you think there are for a city of approximately 1.5 million......


    Are you really that anti-police where your instant assumption is that everything we do is bad, that the lack of professional help is somehow our fault and that if we do try and help someone we better make god-damn sure we put them up in a 5 star hotel, and never, ever consider removing things like tablets, knives and razor blades that they may secret about themselves, because that's a violation of their privacy.....


    And to answer the original question, no people shouldn't be put in cells. They're horrible places designed to house criminals, which these people certainly aren't. But, until there is the space and staff to look after them then there needs to be somewhere they can't harm themselves. Leaving them at home isn't an option, getting a specialist staff at 5pm let alone 2am is impossible, there isn't always family to care for them, which leaves either allowing them to leave, or keeping them in a cell.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    or, they might throw you on the floor, stomp on your broken arm, laugh when you cry out, then lock you up without letting you know whether they're going to get you medical attention at all... they do be pigs after all...


    And sadly this is the case...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    So when all the beds in the mental health wards are full what do you suggest we do with people who are trying to kill themselves? Leave them to it? Or maybe put them in a cell for a couple of hours that admittedly isn't the Ritz, but at least it's a place of safety whilst we try and get them to professional help.

    Out of interest how many mental health beds do you think there are for a city of approximately 1.5 million......

    But not everyone assessed under the mental health act will eventually need a hospital bed and be admitted. What i was trying to get across is 136 suites should be availible in every psychiatric hospital.
    The truth is people are treated like criminals when in police custody.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In an ideal world nobody will be locked up for their own protection, and there will be suites and suites of secure rooms available in psychiatric hospitals for people, but this isn't an ideal world.

    The choices we have here are either a) a mentally ill person gets put in a police cell or b) a mentally ill person is left to kill or injure themselves or someone else. The fantasy suites of short term accommodation don't exist and never will exist. The NHS doesn't have enough money to fund the current levels of mental health service provision, there isn't enough long term accommodation let alone funding a vast increase in short term accommodation.

    I'd definitely rather choose option a) than option b), wouldn't you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree, with those two options a is better, and we're never going to have an ideal world so...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But not everyone assessed under the mental health act will eventually need a hospital bed and be admitted. What i was trying to get across is 136 suites should be availible in every psychiatric hospital.
    The truth is people are treated like criminals when in police custody.


    I'm not disagreeing with you, you're right they don't all need a bed for the night. They DO need professional help by people who are properly experienced and trained. I've been in my job a long time, and trying to get anyone other than a cop, fireman or paramedic to come out after 6pm is nigh on impossible. Putting 136 suites in every hospital is a nice idea, but who's going to pay for it, because in reality you're proposing a suite that is fully manned by trained and qualified social workers, doctors and nurses 24 hours a day in every hospital in the land with no money to pay for it.

    The police cells may not be ideal, but they are better than nothing as a temporary measure.

    I'd also like to point out that not all people who are detained under 136 are calm and compliant. Sending those people straight to hospital where the only protection for the workers there is an unfit out of shape security guard is asking for trouble.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »

    in reality you're proposing a suite that is fully manned by trained and qualified social workers, doctors and nurses 24 hours a day in every hospital in the land with no money to pay for it.

    This isn't true as current 136 suites do not have social workers and doctors waiting around them. of course there are people on call and i think that works well. the profesionals come in as and when needed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    At the end of the day the idea is to remove someone to a place of safety to stop them from hurting themselves. Police cells might not be as comfortable as a hospital, but it is an emergency intervention, to stop someone from being a harm to themselves. So YES they should be, if necessary.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    of course there are people on call and i think that works well. the profesionals come in as and when needed.



    Have you ever tried to actually get one of these professionals outside of office hours?

    The other week we had one emergency social worker for child protection stuff covering the entire force area. Getting hold of one is bad enough, getting them to realise the address you're trying to save a child from is dangerous? Impossible.


    My opinion of social workers' ability/willingness to act decisevley (sp?) isn't good....:yeees:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This isn't true as current 136 suites do not have social workers and doctors waiting around them. of course there are people on call and i think that works well. the profesionals come in as and when needed.

    :lol:

    That's a good one!

    They might be "on call" during office hours, but they sure as hell aren't outside of office hours. Have you ever tried to get safe accommodation for someone with mental health difficulties at 9pm on a Saturday night?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This discussion shows a really interesting contrast between the very idealised world that people outside of systems can have, and the way things actually work out in reality.

    I reckon while police cells may not be pretty, they serve the purpose quite nicely.

    Also, I can't really see a functional alternative to searching someone? Be interested to hear anyone elses suggestions though if they do have ideas.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :lol:

    Have you ever tried to get safe accommodation for someone with mental health difficulties at 9pm on a Saturday night?

    well thats not the point. we're talking about an assessment and where that assessment will take place, not acommodation. if they are detained further after section 136, then they go to hospital. if not then they go back to their home or long-term accomodation eg, supported housing, childrens home, etc.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And to do the assessment you need accomodation to do it in.

    And you also need somewhere to put the person until you get them assessed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This discussion shows a really interesting contrast between the very idealised world that people outside of systems can have, and the way things actually work out in reality.

    I reckon while police cells may not be pretty, they serve the purpose quite nicely.

    :yes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And to do the assessment you need accomodation to do it in.

    And you also need somewhere to put the person until you get them assessed.

    YES A 136 MENTAL HEALTH SUITE IS WHERE THEY CAN BE HELD. :)
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