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Do the police make you feel safe, do you trust them?

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dunno if anybody here picked up a copy of South London Press on Friday 3rd December, but the story of the 15 year old I mentioned has gone to the media...

    To sum it up, the Met is being investigated...

    The story alleges 15 year old went to the demonstration and ended up kettled for hours. She tried to climb a fence to get out and an officer pulled her to the ground and hit her with a baton on the foot. Her foot got broken some how...

    She was kept there for two hours in pain and shock, until her friends could convince the officers to let her go to a hospital. She was wearing her school uniform, so it was obvious she was still in school (by the picture, she does look quite young as well).

    I can't find a link online and you have to pay for South London Press full stories, but it will be interesting to see what comes of this.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just as an aside, since 1998 there have been 333 deaths in Police custody.

    No convictions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Just as an aside, since 1998 there have been 333 deaths in Police custody.

    No convictions.

    :shocking:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'd be interested in comparing those stats to hospitals and seeing whether we should trust the NHS. I think if we spin the same way we'd have to conclude not...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be fair to the Guardian apart from the sensationlist headline and first few paragraphs it then does go onto to point out that only 16 (or roughly 5%) were due to police restraint, though it probably should (if it was trying to be accurate) note that the vast majority were natural causes (about a third) and the second biggest cause was accidental overdose. It also fails to point out that the majority of these people died in hospital.

    Its actually quite an interesting report and I'm sure will be used as a case study on those accuracy in reporting blogs as an extremely lurid example of sloppy and inaccurate reporting.

    http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/deaths_in_custody_report.pdf
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'd be interested in comparing those stats to hospitals and seeing whether we should trust the NHS. I think if we spin the same way we'd have to conclude not...
    Well people who go in to hospitals are sick and more likely to die, some go in who are terminally ill... You can't compare them.

    16 due to police restraint is still scary though... It doesn't sound like a lot, but it is very significant if somebody you love is killed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'd be interested in comparing those stats to hospitals and seeing whether we should trust the NHS. I think if we spin the same way we'd have to conclude not...

    We do get those stats from hospitals and both nurses and doctors have been convicted of killing patients - Shipman and Allitt spring to mind, although extreme cases.

    However, given the respective roles of hospitals and the Police they are hardly comparable outcomes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    We do get those stats from hospitals and both nurses and doctors have been convicted of killing patients - Shipman and Allitt spring to mind, although extreme cases.

    .

    Wasn't that a case of them going out deliberately to murder a patient rather than doing so in the course of their duties? if so its hardly comparable. There's plenty of cases where no-one has been prosecuted despite what seems gross negligence

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/woman-died-24-hours-after-being-given-wrong-drug-466440.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7837490/Dr-Daniel-Ubani-is-struck-off-but-GMC-concerned-at-lack-of-tests-on-foreign-doctors.html

    I could quote others... Sadly there seems to be a culture of cover-up in the NHS, so who knows what the real figures are...
    However, given the respective roles of hospitals and the Police they are hardly comparable outcomes

    The outcomes aren't comparable in that these don't seem to have taken place whilst dealing whilst drunk and violent people. It seems to me that incompetently killing someone because you couldn't speak English or because you got mixed up who was in the bed is a level of incomptence much higher than accidentally killing someone in struggle after they have been trying to bite your fingers off...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I also started this thing about not trusting the NHS as slightly tongue in cheek, as I looked up some evidence it actually scarily looks true

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/19/children-given-wrong-prescriptions-hospital

    http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Tragedy-of-39wrong-drugs39-Leeds.6532277.jp
    The trust further compounded the error as no less than 12 different doctors failed to recognise the error and reconcile the wrong drugs regime with the patient history

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23457448-ambulances-in-crashes-four-times-every-day.do
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wasn't that a case of them going out deliberately to murder a patient rather than doing so in the course of their duties?

    Well, in Shipman's case he actually believed he was doing his job in some cases, relieving people of their condition - mercy killings. In other cases it was clear murder.

    Allitt was mentally ill.

    But point remains, both were convicted of killing patients.

    And yes, I know it was slightly tongue in cheek when you started this line but people should be worried when they go into hospital (not just NHS but any) for treatment. Every single treatment has side effects and some are potentially lethal. Add into that human error of misreading charts etc.

    The real difference here though is that, by its very nature, healthcare carries those risks.

    It's why we ask people to consent to treatment before it's started.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Well, in Shipman's case he actually believed he was doing his job in some cases, relieving people of their condition - mercy killings. In other cases it was clear murder.

    Allitt was mentally ill.

    But point remains, both were convicted of killing patients.
    .

    And policemen are convicted of murder as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_McCaughey

    But the article you quote isn't about bad apples out to deliberately kill people, so to compare Allit and Shipman and claim a positive difference for how the NHS deals with killing people is misleading
    And yes, I know it was slightly tongue in cheek when you started this line but people should be worried when they go into hospital (not just NHS but any) for treatment. Every single treatment has side effects and some are potentially lethal. Add into that human error of misreading charts etc.

    I'm a great fan of the idea of human imperfection, but I'm unconvinced about why a busy custody sergeant dealing with a dozen drunks should be held to a greater standard in diagnosing serious medical problems than a trained medical professional.

    I should also note that the two cases of medical murder I link too don't seem to be off risky treatments which went wrong, but relatively routine cases where gross negligence has led to a death
    The real difference here though is that, by its very nature, healthcare carries those risks.

    It's why we ask people to consent to treatment before it's started

    But by its very nature the people who were in police custody would be heavily drunk, high on drugs, mentally unstable and/or violent. I would suggest that if healthcare carries risks so does policing and probably more so.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    One thing I think everyone should agree on is that if there's people who aren't doing anything wrong and are scared of the police, then the police is failing a big part of what it's supposed to do. When you've got abused women who won't tell the police because they're afraid it won't help, it's the police's failure even if they're wrong and it would help.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And another

    I am supposed to be going to a demo tomorrow... I feel less safe now.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    pick up a few cards while you are there, solicitors who specialise in taking action against the police- it's one way to fight back.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    And another

    I am supposed to be going to a demo tomorrow... I feel less safe now.
    Same like just on the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11967098
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    JavaKrypt wrote: »


    I had a lad from the school ask a teacher to ask me (as I'm the schools officer) if they could hold a protest in the local area re the cuts. I advised that as long as they were peaceful and things didn't get out of hand I couldn't see a problem with it.

    They had their protest and that was that. The huge difference between these and the ones in the news is that these young men and women managed to get their point across without pissing on a statue and throwing paint in someone's eyes.

    I've pretty much given up on this thread because to be honest it has descended into a cut and paste news story thread and nothing more.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Anyone else see a difference between Students and the SWP?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Anyone else see a difference between Students and the SWP?

    swp?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    swp?

    Socialist Worker's Party.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Agitators of the worst kind.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    I had a lad from the school ask a teacher to ask me (as I'm the schools officer) if they could hold a protest in the local area re the cuts. I advised that as long as they were peaceful and things didn't get out of hand I couldn't see a problem with it.

    They had their protest and that was that. The huge difference between these and the ones in the news is that these young men and women managed to get their point across without pissing on a statue and throwing paint in someone's eyes.

    I've pretty much given up on this thread because to be honest it has descended into a cut and paste news story thread and nothing more.
    I don't know why you seem to take this all as an insult to yourself because you are a cop. If you know you aren't anything like what is portrayed in the news, why do you constantly let it affect you personally? I posted that story only because of the part regarding "He said even if I didn't turn up I would be arrested and he also said that if David Cameron was in, his armed officers will be there 'so if anything out of line happens ...' and then he stopped."

    What is he insinuating exactly? I guess we won't know for sure.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    JavaKrypt wrote: »
    I don't know why you seem to take this all as an insult to yourself because you are a cop. If you know you aren't anything like what is portrayed in the news, why do you constantly let it affect you personally? I posted that story only because of the part regarding "He said even if I didn't turn up I would be arrested and he also said that if David Cameron was in, his armed officers will be there 'so if anything out of line happens ...' and then he stopped."

    What is he insinuating exactly? I guess we won't know for sure.

    Hard not to take it personally, I know it's not personal but it is mildly irritating. I don't know what job you do but I'm sure you'd feel a little peeved if we constantly posted news stories about how shit your colleagues are.

    And I was merely commenting that the topic seems to be nothing more than people trying to post the worst example of police behaviour.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Anyone else see a difference between Students and the SWP?
    Did anybody else encounter RESPECT of SWP in university?

    They hound you like fuck if you let them have your number and some can get really arsey. I told them I didn't want to stand as a RESPECT candidate because an activist of theirs at the time was printing homophobic articles in the Desi Express and Muslim Council of Britain had some allegations of homophobia and that I felt the party let it go on to pander to some of their donors... I got accused of saying that "all Muslims are like that"... So quick to pull the race and/or Islamic card when it suits them. :chin:

    My mate is in SWP and he's sweet as, but I don't have a good experience of them.

    Sorry, major tangent...

    Butr here's another story from the demo...

    Man pulled from his wheelchair by police officer.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Hard not to take it personally, I know it's not personal but it is mildly irritating. I don't know what job you do but I'm sure you'd feel a little peeved if we constantly posted news stories about how shit your colleagues are.

    And I was merely commenting that the topic seems to be nothing more than people trying to post the worst example of police behaviour.
    I tried out for the police (actually posted a thread here on it), I knew what stick I'd get, but I never let the actions of other police officers affect me [alas I failed my interview anyway, but I'm not going to re-try any time soon. I've realized it isn't the job for me]. My last job was McDonald's, which everyone always says you have to thick to work there, lower than the low. I was neither so I never let it bother me. I actually loved working there.

    Again with the thread, if you know what is being posted here, don't come in and read it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    to be honest i don't feel safe and secure with policemen. ' The saying goes, to good to be true' . It's hard to give trust to them when you know some of them are bad. Saw the movie Bad Lieutenant.. terrible~
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    JavaKrypt wrote: »
    I tried out for the police (actually posted a thread here on it), I knew what stick I'd get, but I never let the actions of other police officers affect me [alas I failed my interview anyway, but I'm not going to re-try any time soon. I've realized it isn't the job for me]. My last job was McDonald's, which everyone always says you have to thick to work there, lower than the low. I was neither so I never let it bother me. I actually loved working there.

    Again with the thread, if you know what is being posted here, don't come in and read it?
    I've working in Burger King and the people there weren't 'thick'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    I've working in Burger King and the people there weren't 'thick'.

    As a general rule,

    Burgers King near a university - not so thick staff.
    Burger King nowhere near a university - ever so thick staff.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    probably. Now, comment on the OP's question please- do the police make you feel safe?
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