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What would you cut from the Budget?

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can tottaly agree, i know alot of people who did a-levels (course that meant that they didnt need to alot of equipment) who spend their EMA on booze, fags, going out, I think (and I have said this before in a thread about EMA a long time ago) it should be put down to what type of course your on, I think if your on a Art based course you should get slightly more ema than people on a ICT based course purely down to the materials needed for it, when I was at college i could easily spend £30 on art materials a week at a start of a project......but then I think people would think that the goverment would be favouritism course.....

    But you chose to do the art course.

    Plus, some people do need the money for travel.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G wrote: »
    If you had to buy a book for IT purposes, they can be quite expensive :)

    I suppose so :) But i am looking at it from a one sided view as i have never done a-levels....
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Melian wrote: »
    But you chose to do the art course.

    Plus, some people do need the money for travel.

    You chose to go to university, so why should you get assistance?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Melian wrote: »
    But you chose to do the art course.

    Plus, some people do need the money for travel.

    Im not moaning that i have to spend loads on materials, i dont mind it at all as its a passion, i just think if ema was kept in place, i think a better system could have been put in place.

    And I know people have to spend it on travel - another factor that could have been thought about when decided who gets what ema. But alot of colleges and 6th form offer free buses to get to classes.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But alot of colleges and 6th form offer free buses to get to classes.

    Many don't. My old 6th form didn't and the only help given at college was between town and the college sites.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Melian wrote: »
    Many don't. My old 6th form didn't and the only help given at college was between town and the college sites.

    But how long ago was that? I dont know a 6th form in my area that doesnt offer this service
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But how long ago was that? I dont know a 6th form in my area that doesnt offer this service

    September 2005.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you wanted transport to the nearest 6th form, the local authorties got you a free bus pass.

    That was 2001-2003 for me.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This thread really brings out the problem that politicians face in cutting the budget. If its not that someones mother would find it difficult to get to college, or people complaining about the lack of free swimming (which isnt free, central government pay for you).

    Whatever is cut is going to annoy some people, and disadvantage people. In every single case. If politicians are not ruthless, then nothing is going to get done, and nobody will have any benefits as the country will be bust.

    I personally think that cuts should not be made to allowances that look after the elderly and pensioners. We also need to fine tune the budget and the process to make sure as the population gets older, we can still look after them.

    Benefits should be about helping people to get by, not leaving them richer than those who work hard for their money. Though benefits should be protected as I mention above, for the elderly, and people with disability/imparements.

    We need to be tougher and crack down on benefit fraud massively, not just to save the money from the fraudulent claims, but also to deter people from doing it. I know some people claim it with no malice and not to the extent that some people do, however we only have so much money and if we dont make it last, nobody will have anything.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But how long ago was that? I dont know a 6th form in my area that doesnt offer this service
    When I went to sixth form (04-07), I had no option for free travel. We got a bit of a discount on a yearly bus pass that was still ~£300+. I got no EMA and so I had to work 20 hours a week on top of one of the most demanding courses available.

    In the meantime I watched my friends spend literally all of their EMA money on a TCG, while they did courses with more free periods than I could wish for.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    EMA is about bribing kids to stay in education, as far as I can tell.

    however many genuine cases there are, there will always be kids who abuse the system and parents who encourage them to do it. a key problem with EMA is that it is too easy to cheat the system: i knew a girl whose parents were so rich that her dad didn't need to work, so the family income was below the threshold and she got £30 a week, even though they were loaded. whereas my boyfriend at the time was sleeping on our sofa and he didn't get a penny. i don't know how it could be resolved, but the means testing needs to be better organised.

    also, good attendance/behaviour etc earns students on EMA a termly 'bonus' (£100?) which seems utterly unjustified to me.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I will make a contention that the use of force and compulsion by one human over another seems indefensible. From the words used in your reply you presumably think otherwise ?

    Your reply goes some way to confirming for me that morality is thin on the ground.

    Ok, now I understand - it's that half-baked, ill thought out, poorly grounded libertarianism that often afflicts teenagers who've just discovered Ayn Rand and think her drivel contains philosophical insights. It's a very naive, simplistic and unreasoned position to hold that the one and only thing which is immoral is compelling somebody to do something. You end up arguing that if I leave a child to drown in a pond because I can't be arsed to help, that is perfectly moral and fine; but if you were to pinch me on the arm to persuade me to wade in help, you have morally wronged me.

    Fortunately, such simplistic and irrational ways of looking at the world are held to be such by most people with any intelligence and the faculty of reason, so thankfully in this country, we don't leave people to starve if they can't afford to feed themselves in the name of morality.

    Anyway, pointess digression aside, here are a couple of things I would do to reduce the deficit. But I should include the caveat that these are things I'm committed to in principle, so have no idea practically speaking how much revenue they would raise:

    1. Increase inheritance tax to 100%.
    2. Raise the retirement age to 70.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    jamelia wrote: »
    1. Increase inheritance tax to 100%.
    While the Tories are in charge? :lol:
    jamelia wrote: »
    2. Raise the retirement age to 70.
    On an optional basis, yes. In other words, get rid of that silly rule that allows employers to effectively sack people when they reach retirement age. But still allow people the option if they wish. I think there's a bit of a difference between someone working in an office and someone working on a building site, for example, where the health issues associated with old age might be more apparent. You also have to bear in mind that if you increase the age of retirement, that's even more competition on the struggling jobs market, which won't be good for young people in particular.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    While the Tories are in charge? :lol:

    I thought the question was what I would do, not what I thought the Tories are likely to do. I didn't say it was likely ever to happen.
    On an optional basis, yes. In other words, get rid of that silly rule that allows employers to effectively sack people when they reach retirement age. But still allow people the option if they wish. I think there's a bit of a difference between someone working in an office and someone working on a building site, for example, where the health issues associated with old age might be more apparent. You also have to bear in mind that if you increase the age of retirement, that's even more competition on the struggling jobs market, which won't be good for young people in particular.

    I have things to respond to that, but no time to do it now, will come back later.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    While the Tories are in charge? :lol: .

    To be fair unless the Communist Party of Great Britain gets in no party will raise the inheritance tax to 100% (ie when you die your entire estate goes to the state).
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    jamelia wrote: »
    I thought the question was what I would do, not what I thought the Tories are likely to do. I didn't say it was likely ever to happen.

    Yeah I know, I was just saying.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Here's a few things I'd do:

    Introduce a high rate of tax - 50% on anything earned over £200k as salary. 75% on bonuses, including shares which should be taxed based on current value.

    MP salary should be minimum wage levels, use Olymipic Village to house them all. Employment of staff should be on fixed salary range. Only expense claimable would be travel to/from constituency.

    Legalise cannabis but tax it. No large taz rate though, that doesn't work for cigarettes.

    Special tax rate for alocohol sold outside of pubs, to reduce sales/increase tax income.

    Remove charitable status from Private schools, making their income taxable

    Pay GPs on the basis of patients seen, and outcomes achieved, plus add out-of-hours back into contract. Remove Health Authority, reduce targets.

    Remove Road Tax, add fuel tax instead.

    Merge armed forces. Do we really separate structures anymore? Accept existing strategy for Aircraft carrier and Trident purchases.

    Annex Austria.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Franki wrote: »
    When I went to sixth form (04-07), I had no option for free travel. We got a bit of a discount on a yearly bus pass that was still ~£300+. I got no EMA and so I had to work 20 hours a week on top of one of the most demanding courses available.

    In the meantime I watched my friends spend literally all of their EMA money on a TCG, while they did courses with more free periods than I could wish for.

    okay guys....i think we have all gathered that maybe different coucils/areas are different with travel.

    And i was the same, in my last job i had to work from half 4 till 10 in the evening 4 days a week and at the weekends.....and i do think its disgusting that some people cheat the system.

    Something that really annoys me is when people say "your lucky to get ema" i mean come on, whats lucky about your family suffering stupid amounts of financle so in a way you have to go on benifits, if i had the choice i would have given my ema up in a heartbeat so my family could be better off. (this isnt aimed at your franki, just in general)
    This thread really brings out the problem that politicians face in cutting the budget. If its not that someones mother would find it difficult to get to college, or people complaining about the lack of free swimming (which isnt free, central government pay for you).

    Whatever is cut is going to annoy some people, and disadvantage people. In every single case. If politicians are not ruthless, then nothing is going to get done, and nobody will have any benefits as the country will be bust.

    I personally think that cuts should not be made to allowances that look after the elderly and pensioners. We also need to fine tune the budget and the process to make sure as the population gets older, we can still look after them.

    Benefits should be about helping people to get by, not leaving them richer than those who work hard for their money. Though benefits should be protected as I mention above, for the elderly, and people with disability/imparements.

    We need to be tougher and crack down on benefit fraud massively, not just to save the money from the fraudulent claims, but also to deter people from doing it. I know some people claim it with no malice and not to the extent that some people do, however we only have so much money and if we dont make it last, nobody will have anything.

    :yes: I just hope the cuts dont last for long
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think some 10.6% of the budget shown in the below diagram is made up of the bank and building society aquisitions that were made. Surely if we are not buying the banks each year, then thats a hefty amount saving. Plus as we trickle shares back into the stock exchange, and eventually sell off these institutions at a profit, or receive share dividents from the shares, surely eventually we can make a hefty claw back.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    jamelia wrote: »
    Ok, now I understand - it's that half-baked, ill thought out, poorly grounded libertarianism that often afflicts teenagers who've just discovered Ayn Rand and think her drivel contains philosophical insights. It's a very naive, simplistic and unreasoned position to hold that the one and only thing which is immoral is compelling somebody to do something. You end up arguing that if I leave a child to drown in a pond because I can't be arsed to help, that is perfectly moral and fine; but if you were to pinch me on the arm to persuade me to wade in help, you have morally wronged me.

    Fortunately, such simplistic and irrational ways of looking at the world are held to be such by most people with any intelligence and the faculty of reason, so thankfully in this country, we don't leave people to starve if they can't afford to feed themselves in the name of morality.

    Pointless Jamelia philosophical digression aside, perhaps I understand you a little better.
    jamelia wrote: »
    1. Increase inheritance tax to 100%.

    Suppose you have a wealthy elderly relative. Meanwhile the majority of the Jamelia clan are struggling in the extreme to get by. You all get together and, using the intelligence and faculty of reason that you have all been blessed with in abundance, conclude that said wealthy relative should give it all up for the benefit of the clan in keeping with your principles.

    I am curious as to what quantity of force you would be prepared to use on that relative to enact your principles, if she was of the half-baked, ill thought out, poorly grounded libertarianism persuasion and could not be reasoned with.

    You have already implied that you find arm pinching acceptable. What would you be prepared to subject your relative to ? Please clarify.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G wrote: »
    Fair point, afterall people would just go and use a free site.



    How much of a reduction in the armed forces do you think would be sufficient kira?

    What happens if another bosnia occurs again, and we dont have the capability to deal with it?

    Oh and what do you do with the 30,000 to 40,000 or so people who then become unemployed due to not being in the armed forces, and the jobs of the people who supply the armed forces?

    Not a reduction, but in terms of their use.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So have them sat around doing nothing?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G wrote: »
    So have them sat around doing nothing?

    They are not there just to fight. But for national defence.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Here's a few things I'd do:

    Introduce a high rate of tax - 50% on anything earned over £200k as salary. 75% on bonuses, including shares which should be taxed based on current value..

    Almost certainly result in less income coming in - see the Laffer Curve http://www.bized.co.uk/virtual/economy/policy/tools/income/inctaxth5.htm

    MP salary should be minimum wage levels, use Olymipic Village to house them all. Employment of staff should be on fixed salary range. Only expense claimable would be travel to/from constituency.

    That's fine if you want MPs who are unemployable elsewhere, however not so good if you want any quality (the other alternative is that it will become like the nineteenth century and politics becomes the preserve of the wealthy, who already have money)

    Legalise cannabis but tax it. No large taz rate though, that doesn't work for cigarettes.

    Fine, but it would need to be at the same level as cigarrettes or you risk people moving from tobacco to cannabis.
    Special tax rate for alocohol sold outside of pubs, to reduce sales/increase tax income.

    Why outside pubs? It's good for pubs (and I assume you also include nightclubs), but it may also mean more people go out drinking and that's where the main source of violence is. It may also become very complex and lead to tax dodging
    Remove charitable status from Private schools, making their income taxable

    Again is likely to reduce income to Govt (or rather increase expenditure). The charitable status is only available to non-profit making (ie any profits made go back to the school). Remove this and many cease to exist, meaning children go back into the state sector and their education is no so heavily subisdised
    Pay GPs on the basis of patients seen, and outcomes achieved, plus add out-of-hours back into contract. Remove Health Authority, reduce targets.

    You've got the expertise, so I won't argue
    Remove Road Tax, add fuel tax instead.

    Could work, less fair on those who have to drive long distances and does incentivise people owning cars who only make short journeys though.
    Merge armed forces. Do we really separate structures anymore? Accept existing strategy for Aircraft carrier and Trident purchases.

    Tried by Canada. Absolute disaster for morale and cost savings non-existent. The three forces are fundamentally different; Take officer training for example. The army trains its officers to command infantry platoons, the Navy to man ships and the RAF to sit around five star hotels...
    Annex Austria

    Can't argue with that - though France is nearer ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G wrote: »
    I think some 10.6% of the budget shown in the below diagram is made up of the bank and building society aquisitions that were made. Surely if we are not buying the banks each year, then thats a hefty amount saving. Plus as we trickle shares back into the stock exchange, and eventually sell off these institutions at a profit, or receive share dividents from the shares, surely eventually we can make a hefty claw back.

    We'll probably make a profit on the banks within 4-5 years I suspect. But it will depend on the overall state of the economy
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Cut corporation tax further - encouraging companies to set up in this country and profitable ones to expand, this create jobs and jobs bring tax revenue. Also cut employers NI contributions - why make it expensive to employ people?

    Get rid of district councils - they're too small and cost too much compared to the services they provide. Lots of places manage with unitaries and the savings are immense

    No money for films and theatre - here's an idea if you want to a thriving arts scene make things that people want to see; it worked rather well for publishing.

    Remove Health ringfencing - everyone else is being forced to think imaginatively on how to provide services for less money, if health doesn't it'll become flabby and wasteful.

    Build up the banks - the sooner share prices rise the sooner the Govt can offload them and make some more money

    Get rid of many of the smaller QUANGOs and either move their function into central civil service or to some of the larger QUANGOs
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well I think that next 4-5 years would mean a good boost for the governments efforts to sort out the economy just before the next general election.

    If the books begin to balance, and the value of the banks increases, would it not be worth holding onto some minority shares, and reap the dividends from them? Or would that be akin to people kicking off about big brother government.

    The merging of the armed forces on paper is a bloody good idea, albeit on paper. In practice, and as referenced above (examples), it probly wont work as good.

    What the armed forces need to do, is to look at where some expense overlaps, and combine efforts to some degree. This allready occurs with the Navy and the RAF with Task Force Harrier and all three services with Joint Helicopter Command.

    If the armed forces can say "look we can save £x's by utilising "x" overlap, can we keep this?" Then why not do that then just cut everything by a certain amount accross the board.

    The armed forces are currently saving a little amount of money on recruiting, as recruiting due to the economy is booming, and the lack of people leaving, means we are nearly full.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G wrote: »
    Well I think that next 4-5 years would mean a good boost for the governments efforts to sort out the economy just before the next general election.

    If the books begin to balance, and the value of the banks increases, would it not be worth holding onto some minority shares, and reap the dividends from them? Or would that be akin to people kicking off about big brother government..

    More to do with EU rules in that we're only allowed to hold for a certain number of years (though to be honest I'm not sure if we're allowed to keep a minority holding)
    The merging of the armed forces on paper is a bloody good idea, albeit on paper. In practice, and as referenced above (examples), it probly wont work as good.

    What the armed forces need to do, is to look at where some expense overlaps, and combine efforts to some degree. This allready occurs with the Navy and the RAF with Task Force Harrier and all three services with Joint Helicopter Command.

    If the armed forces can say "look we can save £x's by utilising "x" overlap, can we keep this?" Then why not do that then just cut everything by a certain amount accross the board.

    The armed forces are currently saving a little amount of money on recruiting, as recruiting due to the economy is booming, and the lack of people leaving, means we are nearly full

    There's always been joint procurement - eg the RAF and Navy didn't procure seperate rifles, but went for the SA-80, both Army and RAF with Rapier.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Almost certainly result in less income coming in - see the Laffer Curve http://www.bized.co.uk/virtual/economy/policy/tools/income/inctaxth5.htm

    But the laffer curve is flawed when it's based on 100% taxation of anything earned. I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that over a certain level then taxation should be higher on the earnings *over* that level. I'm also trying to reduce the amount of bonus paid. Either it's salary and you earn it that way, or I'm gonna tax you higher.
    That's fine if you want MPs who are unemployable elsewhere, however not so good if you want any quality (the other alternative is that it will become like the nineteenth century and politics becomes the preserve of the wealthy, who already have money)

    Actually the latter is a good point. So maybe I'd use expenses on a menas tested basis. Problem we have at the moment is that our MPs aren't representative now. Look at the % who come from private schools, on either bench. Too many see politics as a career in itself. I'd seriously consider fixed terms too...
    Fine, but it would need to be at the same level as cigarrettes or you risk people moving from tobacco to cannabis.

    Yep.
    Why outside pubs? It's good for pubs (and I assume you also include nightclubs), but it may also mean more people go out drinking and that's where the main source of violence is. It may also become very complex and lead to tax dodging

    In part it's about supermarkets selling cheap without any responsibility, it would help prevent the "pre-gaming" culture which is part of the problem once people get to pubs.
    Again is likely to reduce income to Govt (or rather increase expenditure). The charitable status is only available to non-profit making (ie any profits made go back to the school). Remove this and many cease to exist, meaning children go back into the state sector and their education is no so heavily subisdised

    I don't think that opening your school ground for one day per year, without advertising, plus offering a few scholarships, is enough "community spirit" to justify charitable status with all the benefits (and lost taxable income) that it offers.
    Could work, less fair on those who have to drive long distances and does incentivise people owning cars who only make short journeys though.

    It does. Which do you think causes the most polution and wear/tear on our roads? It would hit the haulage industry to a larger extent too, not to mention anyone driving a car with poor mpg.

    Tried by Canada. Absolute disaster for morale and cost savings non-existent. The three forces are fundamentally different; Take officer training for example. The army trains its officers to command infantry platoons, the Navy to man ships and the RAF to sit around five star hotels...

    Bugger. Still keeping trident though.
    Can't argue with that - though France is nearer ;)

    How do you think we get to Austria?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    But the laffer curve is flawed when it's based on 100% taxation of anything earned. I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that over a certain level then taxation should be higher on the earnings *over* that level. I'm also trying to reduce the amount of bonus paid. Either it's salary and you earn it that way, or I'm gonna tax you higher.

    The Laffer Curve shows that when 100% is taxed no-one earns - that's obvious, however even before then the higher the tax the lower the income.
    The economic results of the Thatcher tax cuts are similar to those of the American tax cuts from at least two points of view. First, the tax cuts had a positive impact on government revenue: per-capita GDP at constant 1995 market prices rose from £9,276 in 1979 to £11,516 by 1990. Over the same period, Inland Revenue contribution to central government tax revenue rose from 55.9 percent in 1979 to 58.2 percent in 1990. Second, high–earning individuals ended up paying a higher
    percentage of the total revenue: the top 10 percent earners went from paying a 35 percent share of total revenues collected in 1979, to contributing 42 percent of total revenues in 1990.
    http://www.itpa.org/open/archive/grecuflattax.pdf

    People take promotions and go for highing pay jobs if the economic incentives are a fair trade off for the extra stress, responsibility. The other alternative is that companies and the public sector have to pay much higher salaries to compensate for the tax take


    In part it's about supermarkets selling cheap without any responsibility, it would help prevent the "pre-gaming" culture which is part of the problem once people get to pubs.

    Okay fair enough, though I do continue to have worries that this would be an administrative nightmare

    I don't think that opening your school ground for one day per year, without advertising, plus offering a few scholarships, is enough "community spirit" to justify charitable status with all the benefits (and lost taxable income) that it offers.

    I think we're arguing on two different premises. Your premise seems to be to bash the rich, mine is manage the economy in the most effective way (remember bashing the rich doesn't make the poor wealthier it just means the rich are poorer). People who send their kids to public school are effectively subsidising the state school sector (ie their taxes don't go down by having a child at public school). If you make public schools go bust (which is what will happen) you add to the costs of the public sector (and you won't gain any more money as the private schools won't be existing to pay tax)

    It does. Which do you think causes the most polution and wear/tear on our roads? It would hit the haulage industry to a larger extent too, not to mention anyone driving a car with poor mpg.

    I'm not sure I explained myself well. But if a major cost to owning one is road tax it will stop people buying them just to shuttle the children to school. If road tax goes people who wouldn't have owned one will now be more incentivised to buy one for short journeys as the extra cost on petrol will be subsidised by those who need cars for longer journeys.
    How do you think we get to Austria?

    Better and better:D
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