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June 22nd - Day of the emergency budget!!!

2

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Part time workers don't earn more than 7 grand though, do they?

    And the basic tax rate payers who DO earn more than 7 grand will now be £170 a year better off, which is a lot when you consider the amount those people are earning!

    Of course VAT is a regressive tax and Lib Dem would not have raised it, but would the Tory's have INCREASED the personal threshold whilst at the same time DECREASED the upper earnings limit? Not without the Lib Dem coalition! You can bet your life on that one.

    Would you prefer they didn't increase VAT and left the tax threshold where it was? Aiming to get the tax free threshold to 10K is a fantastic aim and will make a huge difference to the poorest in the country. I am in full support. Another point to note is that when the VAT rate was reduced by 2.5% to 15% during the "recession" (which I still think we're in), everyone moaned that it was a waste of money and you couldn't notice the difference in your pocket. Now the 2.5% has swung the other way, no doubt the sheep in the country will be up in arms.

    Like I said, it's a compromise. Of course you will have liberals coming out being shell shocked and right wing tories coming out in disgust, that is natural in any party.

    But I would personally like to think the center of both parties is comfortable with the fact that labour are out and both parties are influencing what I view as a reasonable balance in the policy shaping in this country.

    A lot of other countries operate coalition government, and compromise is how it goes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    I couldn't have put that better myself.

    Give this government a chance, I say. How Labour can stand there in parliament today, slating the budget when they fucked up this country good and proper, beggar's belief.

    The quicker we can get through this pain, the quicker the government can start to give more to those areas which need attention. The Lib Dems will call their favours in at some stage when the economy is better and, if the next election is according to Alternative Vote, the Conservatives know that they may still need the Lib Dems in the future.

    Just as Labour changed from a left wing party to the awful centre-ground mess that it is now, perhaps the Conservatives are changing in some ways and are more agreeable with some Lib Dem policies. They'll never be tree-huggers but their old Thatcher supporters are a dying breed.

    We don't have much of an alternative at the moment so let's see how they get on. They've had the best of the brains from both parties (and ex-chancellors) for advice, which gives me far more confidence than imagining Labour being responsible at such a time as this.

    Nice one, I'm glad I'm not alone in my views! :d
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    I couldn't have put that better myself.

    Give this government a chance, I say. How Labour can stand there in parliament today, slating the budget when they fucked up this country good and proper, beggar's belief.

    The quicker we can get through this pain, the quicker the government can start to give more to those areas which need attention. The Lib Dems will call their favours in at some stage when the economy is better and, if the next election is according to Alternative Vote, the Conservatives know that they may still need the Lib Dems in the future.

    Just as Labour changed from a left wing party to the awful centre-ground mess that it is now, perhaps the Conservatives are changing in some ways and are more agreeable with some Lib Dem policies. They'll never be tree-huggers but their old Thatcher supporters are a dying breed.

    We don't have much of an alternative at the moment so let's see how they get on. They've had the best of the brains from both parties (and ex-chancellors) for advice, which gives me far more confidence than imagining Labour being responsible at such a time as this.
    Blaming Labour doesn't take into account the bigger picture ...plus the economy was picking up ...consumption rising ...house prices rising ...economy slowly starting to grow and plans different then the Tory ones to deal with the problem

    The bigger picture is ....every country in the western world is in hock to the international bankers ...right wing left wing and centre governments throughout the western world.
    Did they all suddenly behave stupidly ...follow the U.K's Labour party?
    Nope ...there's the fingerprint of design on the whole situation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Part time workers don't earn more than 7 grand though, do they?

    And the basic tax rate payers who DO earn more than 7 grand will now be £170 a year better off, which is a lot when you consider the amount those people are earning!

    Of course VAT is a regressive tax and Lib Dem would not have raised it, but would the Tory's have INCREASED the personal threshold whilst at the same time DECREASED the upper earnings limit? Not without the Lib Dem coalition! You can bet your life on that one.

    Would you prefer they didn't increase VAT and left the tax threshold where it was? Aiming to get the tax free threshold to 10K is a fantastic aim and will make a huge difference to the poorest in the country. I am in full support. Another point to note is that when the VAT rate was reduced by 2.5% to 15% during the "recession" (which I still think we're in), everyone moaned that it was a waste of money and you couldn't notice the difference in your pocket. Now the 2.5% has swung the other way, no doubt the sheep in the country will be up in arms.

    Like I said, it's a compromise. Of course you will have liberals coming out being shell shocked and right wing tories coming out in disgust, that is natural in any party.

    But I would personally like to think the center of both parties is comfortable with the fact that labour are out and both parties are influencing what I view as a reasonable balance in the policy shaping in this country.

    A lot of other countries operate coalition government, and compromise is how it goes.
    Two quid a week better off in their wage packets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Then VAT at 20% ...your having a larff!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Even some Lib MP's have come out today and said they are a bit shell shocked.
    One guy said he recently got elected on the fight against the Tories likely rise in VAT.

    The Libs were a center left party and I don't think you can excuse their now right wing ideals.

    They sold out ...simple as.

    No they didn't. You were an advocate of 'weak government' during the election - so here's your 'weak government'. And this type of government survives on COMPROMISE.

    Neither side is getting everything it wants but the Lib Dems now have, amongst other things, a commitment from the Conservatives to hold a referendum for changing the voting system. It will result in giving you the 'weak government' that you seek and once again, those future governments will need to COMPROMISE.

    The Lib Dems have taken a judgement to yield the influence required to change the voting system forever in this country. And I admire them for doing that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    No they didn't. You were an advocate of 'weak government' during the election - so here's your 'weak government'. And this type of government survives on COMPROMISE.

    Neither side is getting everything it wants but the Lib Dems now have, amongst other things, a commitment from the Conservatives to hold a referendum for changing the voting system. It will result in giving you the 'weak government' that you seek and once again, those future governments will need to COMPROMISE.

    The Lib Dems have taken a judgement to yield the influence required to change the voting system forever in this country. And I admire them for doing that.

    To be honest mate this is not my idea of weak government!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blaming Labour doesn't take into account the bigger picture ...plus the economy was picking up ...consumption rising ...house prices rising ...economy slowly starting to grow and plans different then the Tory ones to deal with the problem

    But we know that Labour didn't have the money to implement a lot of their pre-election policies. The policies were just honey traps.

    And the recovery is debatable. There are real fears at the moment that this recession could double-dip ... so it is still far too early to say that we are safely in recovery.
    The bigger picture is ....every country in the western world is in hock to the international bankers ...right wing left wing and centre governments throughout the western world.
    Did they all suddenly behave stupidly ...follow the U.K's Labour party?
    Nope ...there's the fingerprint of design on the whole situation.

    I respect that you have strong views on this but I don't agree - and I don't want to debate this, if you don't mind. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    But we know that Labour didn't have the money to implement a lot of their pre-election policies. The policies were just honey traps.

    And the recovery is debatable. There are real fears at the moment that this recession could double-dip ... so it is still far too early to say that we are safely in recovery.



    I respect that you have strong views on this but I don't agree - and I don't want to debate this, if you don't mind. :)

    The recovery was real TEAG but yes only fragile.
    I've half got an ear on the telly at the mo and it was just said that one in every seven pounds taken in VAT comes from the poorer people in society while only one in every twenty five pounds comes from the better off ...does that make sense?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be honest mate this is not my idea of weak government!

    If I understand you correctly, any government that was much weaker than this - especially if a coalition was made up of more than a couple of parties - one might find that NOTHING was accomplished.

    We have to face these cuts. Even Alastair Darling said his cuts would be as bad or worse than the Thatcher era. I know his time scales were different but we also have to ensure our financial standing stands up ... because a good financial rating gives us the credit to spend on the people and infrastructures which require investment. The quicker you overpay your overdraft, the quicker you can start borrowing again.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The recovery was real TEAG but yes only fragile.
    I've half got an ear on the telly at the mo and it was just said that one in every seven pounds taken in VAT comes from the poorer people in society while only one in every twenty five pounds comes from the better off ...does that make sense?

    Yes, I agree that it doesn't make sense. It needs changing. But going back to your statement that the Lib Dems had 'sold out', what would the situation have been like if the Conservatives were in full power on this occasion? The Lib Dems have at least negotiated a tax break for the very poor, for instance. We're not going to change society overnight but thank god there are some Lib Dems in there ensuring that at least their are some checks and balances on Tory policy and they can get a few of their own in, while they're at it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I am a paid up Lib Dem supporter and I firmly believe in MOST of their values.

    That said, even as a Liberal, I can see sense in at least one of all the major party policies.

    I am personally happy with this coalition and I am also happy with the budget. Those saying x y or z person/party has sold out or lied is just being stupid.

    It's a coalition, which means compromise. And of course they are not going to come out on TV and say they didn't want it this way, they must support the path chosen and the policy written or the party will be undermined.

    As a top rate tax payer, I will definitely be worse off in this budget, I will not benefit from the tax breaks, child benefit is frozen (ie a real term decrease yoy) and tax credits reduced. Considering the amount of debt I'm trying to pay off, it's not great. But for the good of the country, and the poorer people in the country, I am willing to take the hit.

    I don't know what people expect a goverment to do when it has 1 trillion £ of debt and a £170 billion annual deficit. I mean, come on? It's a good balance, and if it weren't for the "idiots" like me who voted Lib Dem, the Tories would be in their on their own, and I'm damn sure the budget wouldn't have been so fairly distributed!

    Another +1 for this.

    As I see it, there's no point even considering what the last government would have done, because we know that they were writing cheques that the economy could not cash. The cuts HAD to be made, and for the most part, they seem to be relatively fair, with some amount of protection for those on the very lowest incomes - incidentally the same people that Labour fucked over with the whole 10p tax rate thing.

    As for VAT, I didn't notice myself any better off when it was 15%, so I doubt I'll notice too much of a sting now. It's not ideal, but I would much sooner be taxed on the goods I buy (which I at least have some control over) than have income tax raised, and have less money in my pocket to even make those decisions with.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It turned out the last government were ten billion quid better off than they knew at the time.
    They had their own cuts lined up where the top would have paid more than the bottom.
    The Tories are making sure it's the other way round.

    Senior Liberal Democrat warns concessions are a 'fig leaf'
    A senior Liberal Democrat raised doubts about the coalition budget , saying that policy concessions his party appeared to have won were "fig leaves", describing his own party as being "led" by the centre-right, and warning colleagues that they had "no electoral mandate" for the cuts they were helping to introduce. ....

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/22/lib-dem-leadership-cuts
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm a bit gob smaked that a centre left party can move so far to the right in a matter of days ...truly mind bogling.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just watched the budget on TV (didn't see a mention about job cuts so far).

    It's not as bad as I thought, though I think that if they want to incentivise people on benefits to get in to work, they could always make a higher minimum wage.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    Just watched the budget on TV (didn't see a mention about job cuts so far).

    It's not as bad as I thought, though I think that if they want to incentivise people on benefits to get in to work, they could always make a higher minimum wage.

    Unfortunately that would also incentivse companies not to hire.

    They're not going to mention job cuts directly, but previously we've been instructed to take a percentage cut in operating costs - we're doing some of that by reducing travel costs, reducing marketing etc, and the bosses are reckoning we can hold off on involuntary redundancy, but if we have to make much further cuts jobs will go.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    It's not as bad as I thought, though I think that if they want to incentivise people on benefits to get in to work, they could always make a higher minimum wage.
    I fail to see why the private sector should have to pay to fix the state's problem. Cut the benefits instead.

    I'm loving the way Guardianistas and other rent-a-shites are tonight wanking themselves into a state of utter despair about this very timid Budget. The Boy George has barely dipped his toe into the pool of debt that we've currently got if this is the best he can do. Wonder how much the Limp Dems influenced him.

    As for hiking VAT, is the man completely stupid? Doesn't he remember a certain Alistair Darling tried to cut the VAT for about a year to stimulate the economy and fuck all good it did? Raising it isn't going to make enough of a difference to be worthwhile and is simply a pain in the arse for the retail sector who are going to have to re-price a whole tonne of shit after Christmas. What a bellend.

    In a nutshell, my opinion on the budget - Absolutely fucking pathetic.

    UPDATE: Oh yes. To those people talking about the LibDems allegedly "selling out" and the like, you're bang on the money. But it's no different to what they've always done. I wrote a few weeks ago that Nick Clegg would soon be exposed as an "opportunistic cunt" and I think I've been proved right today. The Limps were promising that they wouldn't want to raise VAT after the election. Today's decision shows them to be not only unprincipled, but a bunch of fucking liars.

    The same applies to you, Call Me Dave. You also ran your campaign saying a VAT increase wasn't on the cards. Tony Blair would be very proud of you, you shameless bastard.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    I fail to see why the private sector should have to pay to fix the state's problem. Cut the benefits instead.
    Are you against minimum wage? Have you ever lived hand to mouth in a city like London?

    Just curious.

    I think minimum wage should be higher... Granted companies may recruit less people, but surely individuals having more money to spend would benefit the economy too.

    Unfortunately in a recession, a lot of the jobs aren't even there to start. People who already have barriers to work are going to be locked in worse poverty than before. I am concerned this will make child poverty worse.

    I don't think the benefit system is perfect, I think there's a mixture of reasons you get some who dick around... But there are normally a few factors in long term unemployment.

    A lot of the budget changes don't worry me tbh... But then I am not getting a pay freeze because I don't earn enough and my current accommodation is quite cheap for where I live. My own circumstances won't change beyond losing a few quid.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think in principle the right decision was made. In practice though, it will be tough, but then again there is no other choice.

    I disagree with the pundits in the media saying it would hurt the economy. It may do so but only indirectly. If people's income goes down, then there is less demand for goods and services. This leads to less production of products, and less needs for workers, etc.

    But then again, only a fraction of people work in the public sector, so the effect may not be that marked.

    I think the economy for the next few years though will be flat, and not because of the budget or the need to cut the deficit. It will take time for confidence to come back in the economy after the recession, and for the banks to lend again.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The rest of this bores the piss out me. It's like you've stuffed a number of politicians names, policies and swear words up your arse, built up pressure thinking about liberals, and then taken a massive shit on your keyboard.
    :d
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    Just watched the budget on TV (didn't see a mention about job cuts so far).

    You won't on such a big stage, nor will they ever talk about the number of jobs affected. However, look at policy coming out now.

    NHS Operating Framework revision was published this week. The press focussed on the targets which were "abolished" (even though none actually were when you read the document, sloppy journos) but part of that policy shift included a reduction in "Management Costs" of 46%.

    Subtle way of announcing job losses over the next 3 years...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ETA Deleted: Already done.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Vat has actually gone up 5% considering Labour had temporarily put it up from fifteen to seventeen and half so it has to be the fastest rising tax in British history.
    Phone bills gas electric fuel etc ...all up by a fifth ...that's a lot of money.

    Those who think it is entirely the last governments fault ...can you explain to me how and why the entire western world is in the same boat?
    Right wing left centre ...all of them have ended up in the same boat at the same time.
    So ...if we'd had a Tory government that last ten years ...we'd still be in this shit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So ...if we'd had a Tory government that last ten years ...we'd still be in this shit.

    would be in worse shit
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Phone bills gas electric fuel etc ...all up by a fifth ...that's a lot of money.

    Surely you mean 1/20th? It's gone up by 5% not 20%
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Surely you mean 1/20th? It's gone up by 5% not 20%

    It's now 20% ...that's a fifth of what your spending.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Vat has actually gone up 5% considering Labour had temporarily put it up from fifteen to seventeen and half so it has to be the fastest rising tax in British history.

    Haven't you got that the wrong way around? VAT was 17.5% but Labour put it down to 15% last year for a number of months before reverting back to 17.5% in January. So the hike isn't 5%, but 3.5% - not that this would make anyone feel better.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    Haven't you got that the wrong way around? VAT was 17.5% but Labour put it down to 15% last year for a number of months before reverting back to 17.5% in January. So the hike isn't 5%, but 3.5% - not that this would make anyone feel better.
    2.5% surely?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    2.5% surely?

    D'oh! :blush:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    D'oh! :blush:

    Doh from me too!!!!!!!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Doh from me too!!!!!!!

    :)
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