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Benefits etc
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
My head is swimming, so the rights and wrongs of claiming benefits you're not necessarily entitled to, the perspective tax payers have of this, and whether or not you should shop people committing benefit fraud.....
Discuss.
Discuss.
0
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However, I rage at the richest people in our country who fail to pay taxes and are therefore equally guilty of a form of "theft" IMHO.
Difference is that one system is designed to have loopholes which allow the avoidance of responsibility the other is designed to trip people up.
Makes you wonder who makes the laws really doesn't it - the rich or the poor [/sarcasm]
The people I did the work for later took me on full time, but I wouldn't have done it had I known what was likely to happen.
Its to complicated and to inflexable which is why people get stuck in a rut and you hear them say "well its not worth me working cause i will be worse off"
Benefits are meant to be a short term solution to help people when they hit hard times its not designed to support people for ever, but how do people make that step back to earning if they lose benefits to soon.
Its just a crap system run by people with no common sense at all
This is the biggest problem I have with the system - I'd far rather you only had 50p knocked off for every pound.
Although, if I ruled the country, taxes would be a lot higher, with no threshold, but everyone would receive a state housing and living allowance.
Why should they get away with it, yet most the other people, IE me, I toe the line.
and before anyone shouts at me, yes i get some benefits, but only what I am entitled too. every penny I earn is declared including my tips, and pay tax on them. If I can do it, why can't others.
I admit the system sucks, but that doesn't mean it is okay to steal. If worked right, and plenty of cases have been seen people have scammed hundreds of thousands out of the system.
In much the same was as stealing is wrong, but I probably would steal if it were the only way to feed my (hypothetical) child.
I know this isn't really answering the original question... But I really hate the image of scroungers, usually targeting working class people from deprived areas. I often meet some people who have low self-esteem, who have been told 'no' (if their applications are replied to) over and over again... People who ask me why they should bother, who feel uncomfortable applying for jobs because they feel it will just be another knock back. These people aren't scroungers, they have nothing to be embarrassed about, they are disadvantaged because employers discriminate on age and they may not have the experience or qualifications (or the right postcode, let's be honest here).
It isn't the fault of these people. A huge number of people I see, in fact most of them, are labourers, or looking for admin or service industry occupations. Most sectors have been affected by a recession which was not their fault... Yet some people seem to blame themselves, or feel ashamed.
I know often we think of benefit fraudsters and this does happen, just as there are issues with the benefits system... But to me, one of the greatest failures of the benefits system is the cultural attitude towards using it. People should not be ashamed of needing help because let's face it, the job market is fucking rough at the moment.
Obviously it's not as simple as that in real terms, but what is the answer?
I have absolutely no problem with people in need claiming benefits and don't think they should be ashamed of doing so, but to fiddle the system is not right! How can they feel any sense of pride stealing from tax payers?
Benefit fraud isn't just stealing from tax payers, as strange as that sounds. I've been guilty of it in the past, because I spent a few hours a week volunteering in a school helping kids who found reading difficult. I believed I'd be stealing from the tax payer if I didn't do something useful while I was on benefits but if you're on job seekers allowence you aren't allowed to volunteer or do a course because you have to be available to start work at a moments notice, whether you have the skills and experience needed or not. The system is insane, because you can't get help with paying rent if you work part time, so basically you have to work full time or do absolutely nothing. That's fine for the short term, but if you follow the rules and have been unable to find a full time job, you could be doing nothing for years.
I think working part time and not telling anyone is probably the lesser of the evils in many cases, because you're more likely to end up with a full time job, off benefits and paying taxes again. When it comes to benefits though, pride does not come into it. You can't feel a sense of pride when you have to ask others for money, whatever the reason. All you can do is your best, and in many cases that's seen as benefit fraud.
There are failings to every system... But I think theft is theft. If you play the system, you're stealing the tax payer's money which could be going to better places (not politician's duck houses or penis extension nukes :thumb: ).
People aren't putting anything right by fiddling the system, plus I don't see why a few people should be allowed to claim benefits and work a lot of hours, or pretend to be sick (granted fraud has many forms and it isn't so straightforward), when other people are working, or genuinely claiming and struggling and being painted with the same brush. One rule for everyone in my view.
I think you are wrong there, they may have been adapted over the last 20 years to provide long term support, but apart from a few like disabality and carers allowence etc that is certainly not what they are meant to do. Its impossible for that to happen in any society because you end up with to few people paying into the system and to many drawing on it. It has to be made easier for people to get off benefits.
I doubt that could work as i understand it from the politics i have studied at college there was good and plentiful supplies of state housing until the conseratives sold them all off now we have a situation were millions of pounds is paid every week to private landlords because there are no council houses.
We are still living with Thatchers legacy remember that if you are old enough to vote in May
No, and neither do I. I'd far rather fix the system
sorry, my language was unclear - I meant an allowance from the state for living and housing costs.
Personally, I am in favour of the state providing housing - but the problem there is if it provides "too much' and removes the demand for the private landlord, thus removing choice.
Well, I think you are wrong... Job Seekers Allowance may be designed to be short term but, which of the others are?
The old saying "survival of the sickest" comes to mind.
Housing benefit was meant to help people who are unable to earn enough to pay a rent, well thats a great idea but it was meant to help a much smaller number than it now is and in the vast number of cases it was only ever supposed to be temporary, now there is no longer cheap council housing avalible people are forced to claim hundreds of pounds per month to pay private landlords when the system was set up the average claim was for a few pounds towards an already small council rent.
Council tax benefit, well council tax had not even been thought of when the benefits system was put into place. Another tory legacy that makes no sense since most of what is raised seems to paid back out in benefits to those who cant pay and chasing those who won't through the courts.
Disability and carers allowence are of course long term and i am not judging here but i think we all can admit these two allowences are very much abused, if this was tackled then the people who really need it could actually get enough to raise their standard of living.
Unemployment benefit is in a lot of cases more or less permenant.
I am not saying that those claiming are in the wrong, far form it, i doubt there is anyone who goes from cradle to grave without taking some benefit in some form, but the system just does not work it needs rethinking.
I dont think the state can provide to much social housing, one of the biggest benefits paid out is housing which is just lining the pockets of private landlords living the easy life with an almost guarented rent payment every month, some of the rents i have seen in the local paper are more than a mortgage would be.
But as all the housing stock has been sold off there is now no viable choice but to rent privately when 20 years ago you would get a council house for a very low rent that was affordable.
People on low wages no longer have any choice i'm afraid since Thatcher screwed the country.
I agree. I know someone whose husband has kidney failure and a tumour. He got told in October that he's "fit for work".:yeees: The friend is dreading the day when she has to go through the same assessment to decide whether she's fit for work. She (and many others, including myself) have all said it's all well and good saying someone is fit for work; but doing what? And it doesn't take into account that a) some of us having flucutating medical conditions & b) Doing a job one day will leave us unable to work the next.
Would someone really want to employ someone like that? I somehow don't think so. The disability discrimination act prevents employers doing that; but I would rather employ a healthy person who can work 5 days a week instead of a disabled perosn who can only work when their body allows them to do so.
How?
My problem is also with those who deliberately don't bother to work cos they are better off not doing! I get very annoyed when I visit the dentist and the first thing they ask is 'am I claiming any benefits' and when I collect a prescription from the chemist and they ask 'do you pay for these' and when I hear people saying 'well I intended to go back to school after having the baby but I'm actually better off not doing cos I get this benefit and that benefit so I'm not going back to work'. :banghead:
I understand that frustration but surely that's the result of a failing in the system rather than the individual? It might not be something you'd consider personally but I find it pretty understandable that people aren't working because they are better off on benefits.
Why can't it be both? I don't see how a failing system negates personal responsibility and accountability.
Woa... so why don't we all quit our jobs and live of benefits?