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Pedo priests

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8572081.stm

How has this scandal gone on for so long without the police doing something about this? This man should at the very least be charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice, if not as an accessory to the crime of child abuse.

Are there any catholic priests who don't abuse children? It seems to me that the catholic church is one big international paedophile ring.

I can speak from first hand experience that the church covers these things up. I was abused by a priest when I was 18, and it turned me gay.

When is the world going to wake up to the abuse that's been going on for centuries and punish the people responsible?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm really sorry about what you've experienced and I can imagine why it seems like the Catholic Church must be full of abusive priests but it's clearly not true that all Catholic priests are sexually abusive.

    It's fine to have a debate about the issues around the ongoing investigation into what happened in Ireland, but please bear in mind that statements that imply all Priests are paedophiles aren't true and bring up issues around libel for us as an organisation publishing what you post.

    So I'll leave your post up but do be careful of how you describe the organsation as a whole - it's one thing to accuse an organisation of being institutionally abusive, it's another to imply that all priests are sexually abusive.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can speak from first hand experience that the church covers these things up. I was abused by a priest when I was 18, and it turned me gay.

    It's hard to know how to put this delicately without appearing insensitive (and if it seems so, I deeply apologise) but being abused does not necessarily 'turn you gay'. There are many men from abused backgrounds that are not gay and are now in happy heterosexual relationships.

    It's possible that before your abuse you, like a large percentage of straight men, had some some level of bi-curiousness, if not bisexuality, that may have lain there discreetly disregarded. I am stating this because I fear that you might be angry about being 'gay', as if it has turned you into some 'abnormal' state, which is not true.

    It must have been unimaginably traumatising for you but don't let what happened cast a shadow over the rest of your life by blaming the abuse on being gay now. Sexuality isn't either just straight or gay, but there is a full range of sexuality in between.

    You didn't ask for the abuse, you were not complicit in the abuse, you did not deserve the abuse - but how you take your life forward now is up to you. You need to be strong and have confidence in yourself, and if that means that you are living a gay lifestyle, you are still a normal human being with normal desires. :thumb:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ^^^^
    This.
    Xx
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It does seem to be coming to an end in Ireland now (although simultaneously seems to be going on and on). But in the rest of Europe, it's just getting started. Similar scandals have just hit Germany, the Netherlands, Austria and Switzerland, not to mention Brazil. I believe Poland have had similar scandals a while back. I think we can expect this one to run and run. Personally, I hope they all get together and do what the Americans did and sue them for every penny in their grubby little pockets, in addition to those being responsible (not just for the abuse, but for covering it up and facilitating it) going to prison.

    It's also been brought up at the UN, because the Vatican has signed up to international laws to protect children, and appears to have failed to honour their responsibilities.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think one thing that we need to be careful of is the distinction between events that have happened in the past, and current behaviour.

    Yes, some of those involved are still priests and leading members of the Catholic church in Ireland but this doesn't mean than all current priests are kiddy fiddlers by any stretch.

    Another thing to remember is that while this week its the Catholic church that is under fire, the problem at the time was not unique to the church. There have also been several high profile reports of cover ups within social services.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    It's hard to know how to put this delicately without appearing insensitive (and if it seems so, I deeply apologise) but being abused does not necessarily 'turn you gay'. There are many men from abused backgrounds that are not gay and are now in happy heterosexual relationships.

    It's possible that before your abuse you, like a large percentage of straight men, had some some level of bi-curiousness, if not bisexuality, that may have lain there discreetly disregarded. I am stating this because I fear that you might be angry about being 'gay', as if it has turned you into some 'abnormal' state, which is not true.

    It must have been unimaginably traumatising for you but don't let what happened cast a shadow over the rest of your life by blaming the abuse on being gay now. Sexuality isn't either just straight or gay, but there is a full range of sexuality in between.

    You didn't ask for the abuse, you were not complicit in the abuse, you did not deserve the abuse - but how you take your life forward now is up to you. You need to be strong and have confidence in yourself, and if that means that you are living a gay lifestyle, you are still a normal human being with normal desires. :thumb:

    Well said.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It does seem to be coming to an end in Ireland now (although simultaneously seems to be going on and on). But in the rest of Europe, it's just getting started. Similar scandals have just hit Germany, the Netherlands, Austria and Switzerland, not to mention Brazil. I believe Poland have had similar scandals a while back. I think we can expect this one to run and run. Personally, I hope they all get together and do what the Americans did and sue them for every penny in their grubby little pockets, in addition to those being responsible (not just for the abuse, but for covering it up and facilitating it) going to prison.

    It's also been brought up at the UN, because the Vatican has signed up to international laws to protect children, and appears to have failed to honour their responsibilities.

    Plain fact is, the catholic church -much like historical schemas it all have been based in abuse. Finally that era has come to an end.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Have anyone seen the HYS (Have Your Say) page on this? The proportion of posts that have been referred or removed, speak volumes!!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Monserrat wrote: »
    Have anyone seen the HYS (Have Your Say) page on this? The proportion of posts that have been referred or removed, speak volumes!!

    What volumes does it speak? Anger? The depressing thing about this is that there seems to be very little evidence from history that people who are constantly fucked by a particular religion end up leaving said religion. You'd have thought that the Catholic church's role in the Franco regime in Spain would've been enough to destroy it in that country, but today it's still one of the most Catholic countries in Europe.

    Did I mention Denmark?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe it's just that convictions aren't being reported, but I am really surprised at the apparent lack of police action towards the (seemly endless) stream of priests who abused minors.

    I mean, is any of them being arrested, tried and convicted of anything? Ever? Where are they now? Why aren't they being brought to justice? And those who covered up the crimes of course.

    The mind boggles.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Plain fact is, the catholic church -much like historical schemas it all have been based in abuse. Finally that era has come to an end.

    Frankly, I find this type of generalisation extremely offensive and discriminatory.

    The particular problem in Ireland was not the abuse, per se. As others have pointed out, the sexual abuse of children is not unique to the Catholic Church or to Ireland. What the Irish victims are (rightly) so angry about was the way the allegations were swept under the carpet and not properly investigated.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As has been said before, it isn't just in ireland, or this era. Although we live in ireland now, my grandad was abused in Liverpool when he was a boy, and that was about 60 years ago. The problem is the priests thinking that they can get away with it, which, up until now, has been for the good part true. A girl in my class was abused, and last year she tried to drink herself to death because of it.
    At least the affected people are getting a bit of justice now.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's not just Ireland.
    It's not just Catholics.
    It's not just priests.

    Unfortunately abuse of children is as old as time itself and is not confined to any nation, creed or profession. As someone with a strong Catholic inclination, I do find this gross generalisation actually quite offensive. Whilst we all find the hush-hush tactics of the Catholic Church in Ireland abhorrent, to leap to the assumption that it's somehow widespread and / or institutionalised is narrow-minded, ignorant and downright offensive.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's not just Ireland.
    It's not just Catholics.
    It's not just priests.

    Unfortunately abuse of children is as old as time itself and is not confined to any nation, creed or profession. As someone with a strong Catholic inclination, I do find this gross generalisation actually quite offensive. Whilst we all find the hush-hush tactics of the Catholic Church in Ireland abhorrent, to leap to the assumption that it's somehow widespread and / or institutionalised is narrow-minded, ignorant and downright offensive.
    Frankly i don't think it's unfair for people to believe it's institutionalised, any more than believing racism is institutionalised in the police. The majority of priests are not kiddie fiddlers, just as the majority of coppers are not racists. However, there have been significant number of cases, and perhaps more importantly cover ups have been extensive and involved senior figures.

    What I find most extraordinary, outrageous in fact, is the lack of prosecutions or even police investigations. Anybody else, but anybody else who is alive and was accused of sexually molesting minors would have the old bill knocking on their door faster than you can say Gary Glitter. However put a dog collar on, and apparently you get lifetime get out of jail card.

    Poor Roman Polanski must be wishing he chose the clergy rather than Hollywood as his career.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin, thought it might be useful if I outlined how I see the situation and provided some background.

    First thing to note about the Irish abuse cases is they do have a great deal in common with other cases of widespread abuse in residential settings. Whilst in some countries Parish Priests have been accused of significant amounts of abuse, in Ireland the cases have focused on Catholic run institutions such as reform schools or orphanages.

    As anyone who's familiar with the history of many of these institutions, physical and mental abuse was common and a lot of the sexual abuse relates to the same issues of powerlessness and a lack of contact with non-church authorities.

    In a lot of ways it's the corruption of these institutions themselves that seems to have allowed the abuse to continue. By perverting their duty of care and creating living situations where allegations of abuse were dismissed or ignored.

    The same thing can be seen in the history of Cheshire's Children's homes - so I don't think it's necessarily the Catholic Church that was particularly institutionalised, more something that was part of many other organisations attitudes towards their wards. It's about the way children were denied a voice and a say in the world the state put them in. For me anyway, there are just so many striking similarities.

    It does seem that the Irish example may be the worst but it's also important not to divorce the abuse from similar attitudes in other places and institutions - this is a stain across a whole century for people of all creeds.

    However it's worth noting that some cases were prosecuted and that's how the allegations first came to light. This is about abuse that has stretched back decades and that makes thing complicated and difficult. What's being delt with now is the continual aftershock of the decision, during those decades, to move Priests on, rather than report them to the police, rather than specific abuse - Whether that's right or not, and many would argue to focus should be on prosecutions, that's not the issue the Catholic Church has any power over, which is why it's the Irish government who people are blaming for the lack of prosecutions.

    There have been many calls for more prosecutions, you may remember the anger when no new prosecutions followed the publication of the 2009 Ryan report into the allegations.

    Whilst I'm always loathe to use wikipedia as a quote, it sums up what happened quite well in this case -
    In response to the furor aroused by the media reports, the Irish government commissioned a study which took nine years to complete. On May 20, 2009, the commission released its 2600-page report, which drew on testimony from thousands of former inmates and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions. The commission found that Catholic priests and nuns had terrorised thousands of boys and girls for decades and that government inspectors had failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation. The report characterised rape and molestation as "endemic" in Irish Catholic church-run industrial schools and orphanages.

    from - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland#Early_revelations_of_sexual_misconduct

    The full report is available from this website -

    http://www.childabusecommission.ie/

    The response of the Catholic Bishops of Ireland included the following -
    The Ryan report represents the most recent disturbing indictment of a culture that was prevalent in the Catholic Church in Ireland for far too long. Heinous crimes were perpetrated against the most innocent and vulnerable, and vile acts with life-lasting effects were carried out under the guise of the mission of Jesus Christ. This abuse represents a serious betrayal of the trust which was placed in the church.

    Anyway, just thought it was worth throwing my 10 cents in and providing a little background on the situation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    Aladdin, thought it might be useful if I outlined how I see the situation and provided some background.

    First thing to note about the Irish abuse cases is they do have a great deal in common with other cases of widespread abuse in residential settings. Whilst in some countries Parish Priests have been accused of significant amounts of abuse, in Ireland the cases have focused on Catholic run institutions such as reform schools or orphanages.

    As anyone who's familiar with the history of many of these institutions, physical and mental abuse was common and a lot of the sexual abuse relates to the same issues of powerlessness and a lack of contact with non-church authorities.

    In a lot of ways it's the corruption of these institutions themselves that seems to have allowed the abuse to continue. By perverting their duty of care and creating living situations where allegations of abuse were dismissed or ignored.

    The same thing can be seen in the history of Cheshire's Children's homes - so I don't think it's necessarily the Catholic Church that was particularly institutionalised, more something that was part of many other organisations attitudes towards their wards. It's about the way children were denied a voice and a say in the world the state put them in. For me anyway, there are just so many striking similarities.

    It does seem that the Irish example may be the worst but it's also important not to divorce the abuse from similar attitudes in other places and institutions - this is a stain across a whole century for people of all creeds.

    However it's worth noting that some cases were prosecuted and that's how the allegations first came to light. This is about abuse that has stretched back decades and that makes thing complicated and difficult. What's being delt with now is the continual aftershock of the decision, during those decades, to move Priests on, rather than report them to the police, rather than specific abuse - Whether that's right or not, and many would argue to focus should be on prosecutions, that's not the issue the Catholic Church has any power over, which is why it's the Irish government who people are blaming for the lack of prosecutions.

    There have been many calls for more prosecutions, you may remember the anger when no new prosecutions followed the publication of the 2009 Ryan report into the allegations.

    Whilst I'm always loathe to use wikipedia as a quote, it sums up what happened quite well in this case -



    from - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland#Early_revelations_of_sexual_misconduct

    The full report is available from this website -

    http://www.childabusecommission.ie/

    The response of the Catholic Bishops of Ireland included the following -



    Anyway, just thought it was worth throwing my 10 cents in and providing a little background on the situation.

    YOUR MAKING EXCUSES FOR A COmMERCIAL ENTERPRISE that has been in business for two thousand years.
    No other company on earth can come near its fabulous wealth or power.

    The Vatican is a unique city.
    It is a kingdom above all the other kingdoms of the earth.
    Every world leader has to bow before this Egyptian Babylonian man God as has happened since the days of Nimrod.
    For centuries they imprisoned enslaved tortured ...people who were learning to read and even more so those trying to teach.
    Teaching the Bible or attempting to translate it brought death.
    This institution is steeped in the blood of the prophets ...get out of her my people ...before you too are judged guilty of her sins.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How come I never seem to hear anything about jail in all this?
    The popegod says sorry and throws a few quid at people ...carry on.
    Did you know that the Bible says ...those who teach celibacy are teaching the teachings of demons?

    Doesn't matter if you think this all religous bollox ...what matters is how easily they brainwashed billions of people into thinking idol worship and virgin worship are Christian concepts.
    They aint so...accept your in a sun worshiping religion of great cruelty and deceit.

    And history is on my side ...funnily enough ...so is current affairs ...go figure.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This isn't a thread to attack Christianity, feel free to follow the rules and set up another discussion if you'd like to discuss Christianity Roll.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    Aladdin, thought it might be useful if I outlined how I see the situation and provided some background.

    First thing to note about the Irish abuse cases is they do have a great deal in common with other cases of widespread abuse in residential settings. Whilst in some countries Parish Priests have been accused of significant amounts of abuse, in Ireland the cases have focused on Catholic run institutions such as reform schools or orphanages.

    As anyone who's familiar with the history of many of these institutions, physical and mental abuse was common and a lot of the sexual abuse relates to the same issues of powerlessness and a lack of contact with non-church authorities.

    In a lot of ways it's the corruption of these institutions themselves that seems to have allowed the abuse to continue. By perverting their duty of care and creating living situations where allegations of abuse were dismissed or ignored.

    The same thing can be seen in the history of Cheshire's Children's homes - so I don't think it's necessarily the Catholic Church that was particularly institutionalised, more something that was part of many other organisations attitudes towards their wards. It's about the way children were denied a voice and a say in the world the state put them in. For me anyway, there are just so many striking similarities.

    It does seem that the Irish example may be the worst but it's also important not to divorce the abuse from similar attitudes in other places and institutions - this is a stain across a whole century for people of all creeds.

    However it's worth noting that some cases were prosecuted and that's how the allegations first came to light. This is about abuse that has stretched back decades and that makes thing complicated and difficult. What's being delt with now is the continual aftershock of the decision, during those decades, to move Priests on, rather than report them to the police, rather than specific abuse - Whether that's right or not, and many would argue to focus should be on prosecutions, that's not the issue the Catholic Church has any power over, which is why it's the Irish government who people are blaming for the lack of prosecutions.

    There have been many calls for more prosecutions, you may remember the anger when no new prosecutions followed the publication of the 2009 Ryan report into the allegations.

    Whilst I'm always loathe to use wikipedia as a quote, it sums up what happened quite well in this case -



    from - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland#Early_revelations_of_sexual_misconduct

    The full report is available from this website -

    http://www.childabusecommission.ie/

    The response of the Catholic Bishops of Ireland included the following -



    Anyway, just thought it was worth throwing my 10 cents in and providing a little background on the situation.
    Thanks for that :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've heard rumblings the pope's brother has been involved in child abuse.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've heard rumblings the pope's brother has been involved in child abuse.

    No, he was allegedly in charge of somewhere where child abuse was occurring back in the day. I don't think he personally has been accused of child abuse.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    like the south park episode (red hot catholic love :D) says, paedophile priests are there because they are priests, there isn't anything in the Bible that specifically says don't molest little boys so these priests convicne themselves they can do it. Add to this the fact that they have to ignore the most natural urge to have sex, its a recipe for molestation.

    I saw a documentary a few years ago that said that the catholic guidelines about covering up these cases was brought in by ratzinger. He should be held responsible in some other way other than him just saying sorry. god's representative on earth would not knowingly let a paedophile go onto continue working wiht children. he should take off his pope hate and gold bracelets and resign from his position.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've always believed forcing celibacy onto people has to have *some* effect. It's not natural or healthy. I have no doubt whatsoever that if the Catholic Church allowed their clergy to marry cases of abuse would have been lower.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    I've always believed forcing celibacy onto people has to have *some* effect. It's not natural or healthy. I have no doubt whatsoever that if the Catholic Church allowed their clergy to marry cases of abuse would have been lower.

    There's a couple of things here. Firstly, I suspect that gay men were overrepresented in the clergy at this time. In 1960s Ireland, it obviously represented one of the few options of a gay man, that didn't involve marrying a woman and trying to deny his sexuality. So that said, put a gay man in charge of a bunch of teenage boys, with no checks into his conduct, and it's not going to be massively surprising to find that a few will sexually abuse those they essentially have complete power over. And let's get this straight, this isn't paedophilia, strictly speaking, because paedophilia refers to a sexual attraction to prepubescent children. That's not to say that there weren't also priests who were actually paedophiles. And secondly, this assumes that the abuse was about fulfilling sexual urges, which isn't necessarily the case. Prison rapists aren't doing it because they're gay, they're doing it for power, authority, punishment, humiliation, etc. And you see a lot of this type of thing in the actions of nuns in Ireland, for example, who were usually dealing with girls rather than boys. Again, an institution where adults have this kind of power over vulnerable people with absolutely no safeguards will probably have the odd case of this sort of abuse, which is why you see similar abuses in various institutions at the time. Hell, even schools were allowed to beat children, and did so shamelessly, so it's not a massive surprise to see what went on behind closed doors.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    pastrypal wrote: »
    like the south park episode (red hot catholic love :D) says, paedophile priests are there because they are priests, there isn't anything in the Bible that specifically says don't molest little boys so these priests convicne themselves they can do it. Add to this the fact that they have to ignore the most natural urge to have sex, its a recipe for molestation.

    So you're saying that because priests cannot fulfil their natural urges as men on women, they think it's ok to do it on young boys? If you honestly consider that logical on any level, then you need you head checked.

    As much as I love South Park, and I really, really do, to see that particular episode as anything but farcical satire is deeply missing the point. Remember, South Park is only partly based on fact.

    Also bear in mind that the Catholic doctrine forbidding priests to marry and thus procreate (as Catholics do not believe in pre-marital sex or artificial contraception), was only introduced in the c.10th century to prevent the offspring of clergymen from claiming inheritences from the Church, not because of some centrally-held belief that priests should be purer in heart and body than those of their parishoners.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    This isn't a thread to attack Christianity, feel free to follow the rules and set up another discussion if you'd like to discuss Christianity Roll.

    I was discussing Catholicism not Christianity.
    But ...


    Sinead O'Connor's Open Letter



    March 22, 2010

    'A little known fact is that until 2001 there were explicit rules in place, issued by The Vatican, to every bishop in the world, on how to deal with allegations of abuse. These rules included a vow of the utmost secrecy under threat of excommunication, to be sworn by clergy receiving complaints AND sworn by victims.

    The document states these matters must be "restrained by perpetual silence".In 2001 then Cardinal Ratzinger, sent another set of instructions to every bishop in the world, stating that allegations were to be dealt with "exclusively" by the church and were subject to "The Pontifical secret", which means one risks excommunication by discussing matters of abuse outside of the church.

    I also have the text of the oath sworn by clergy and victims.

    The Vatican strategy, as shown in Saturday's letter from the Pope to Irish catholics, is to sell the Irish catholic hierarchy down the river, by making it seem they were acting independently of The Vatican when they covered up abuse.

    That is a lie. And in fact, the letter is a thesis in the fine art of lying and betraying one's own people.


    The fact that the Irish hierarchy are allowing themselves to be sold down river and are leaping in front of bullets for The Vatican, makes me wonder if they themselves are living under abusive and bullying circumstances.It seems to me the hierarchy revere and fear The Vatican more than they fear the God they are supposed to believe in.

    Why are they not telling the truth? Which is that they, like nazis, were following explicit orders.

    That fact does not exonerate them, but is something we all need to understand.

    I know an old man who lately has gone a bit dotty. He has money, but has been caught three times stealing small items from his local supermarket. Last week he was handcuffed, arrested and spent a day and a night in jail.
    Meanwhile not one member of the clergy the world over, who were involved in following Vatican orders to cover up, have even been questioned by the police, as any of the rest of us would be if we knew of such crimes and covered them up.

    Neither has The Vatican been the subject of any criminal investigation. The Pope's letter repeatedly suggests that for the the healing of victims and our nation, we should return to the church, and claims the church is the only avenue through which we may conduct a relationship with Christ.
    That, in my opinion, is blasphemy.

    Why should we remain in, or return to a relationship with an organization which has so little respect for its victims or the rest of us, that they are lying to our faces and treating us like half-wits? Which we are if we let them get away with it.

    We are in an extremely dysfunctional relationship with an organization which is actually abusing us.

    Three weeks ago we were told by the bishop of Ferns, that it was our "God given duty" to help the church pay their legal bills and compensation to victims!

    We were told it would be "unchristian" of us not to do so.

    We were told it would be "in the interests of the future welfare of children" for us to cough up, along with all our little old ladies and gentlemen.

    This is abuse.

    All of us know someone who is or has been in an abusive relationship. We would rightly advise our loved ones to get up and walk away. What victims deserve, the world over, is a full confession from the Vatican, that they ordered the cover up. And that they are now trying to cover up the cover up.

    The only way the victims or the rest of us will get that confession is by boycotting them in order to bring them to their knees. And refuse to go to mass until they fully confess.

    If they don't confess they are finished. It is only a matter of time. Confession is their one slim chance of survival.

    The fact is, we don't need them to get to God, or to have a relationship with Jesus. We never did need them. And the beautiful position we are now in, is that they need us.

    We should illustrate this fact, all caring catholic people, by boycotting them until they confess and show palpable remorse and respect, to God and to their victims.

    Sinead O'Connor
    Ireland
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So you're saying that because priests cannot fulfil their natural urges as men on women, they think it's ok to do it on young boys? If you honestly consider that logical on any level, then you need you head checked.

    As much as I love South Park, and I really, really do, to see that particular episode as anything but farcical satire is deeply missing the point. Remember, South Park is only partly based on fact.

    Also bear in mind that the Catholic doctrine forbidding priests to marry and thus procreate (as Catholics do not believe in pre-marital sex or artificial contraception), was only introduced in the c.10th century to prevent the offspring of clergymen from claiming inheritences from the Church, not because of some centrally-held belief that priests should be purer in heart and body than those of their parishoners.

    Yes I'm aware South Park is only partly based in fact, if that! :rolleyes:

    I didn't think that the bit in that episode where the Holy Doctrine of Vatican Law is actually guarded by a giant spider!

    But back to the point. I do think that a lot of Paedophile Priests probably wouldn't have been paedophiles if they weren't priests. Simple as that.
    Im not trying to suggest its all a scam, like some say postalgold scam tings.
    The situation and rules regarding their sexuality give rise to these urges, plus the fact that for so long they could get away with it has meant that it is a peculiar aspect to the Catholic religion, it is sad and stereotypical but I believe it is true, and you haven't actually given me any reasons to counter this argument.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    pastrypal wrote: »
    But back to the point. I do think that a lot of Paedophile Priests probably wouldn't have been paedophiles if they weren't priests. Simple as that.

    The situation and rules regarding their sexuality give rise to these urges, plus the fact that for so long they could get away with it has meant that it is a peculiar aspect to the Catholic religion, it is sad and stereotypical but I believe it is true, and you haven't actually given me any reasons to counter this argument.

    Not terribly au fait with how debates work are we?

    You can't make an assertion based on opinion, not fact, namely that pedo priests wouldn't have been pedoes were they not priests and then assume you win the argument if I can't find evidence to the contrary. That, my friend, is what we in the trade call bullshit.

    The fact that pedophilia and child abuse exist outside the priesthood highlights your logic as total tosh. By that logic, Gary Glitter wouldn't have been a pedo were he not a musician, ergo, the music business is a hotbed of kiddy fliddlers. See what I mean?

    If you don't like Catholicism or organised religion then fine, that's a debate for another day. But don't make bullshit assumptions trussed up as logic to suit the fact that you clearly dislike Catholicism, Christianity or more likely, both.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think there are a number of factors within these particular abuse cases that seems to imply a wider picture of abuse - which would suggest that the sexual nature of these crimes isn't the driving factor here.

    Certainly abuse was directed towards people of many varied ages, it involved rape and sexual abuse but also physical abuse and humiliation. The abuse itself doesn't seem to have had any particular gender preference either around victims or abusers.

    I think it's a really dangerous jump to assume that by being a Priest someone has become a peadophile. Surely if a person was in a position where they felt the need to break their vows of chastity, as Catholic Priests have continually done since the measure was introduced, there's no reason that should alter who they find attractive?

    Wouldn't it be far more likely, though I'm not arguing this myself, that someone who was attracted to abusing people would take a position where they were aware this was possible?

    However I'm also much more likely to believe that being a member of an abusive system makes a person more likely to be abusive - something where the actual nature of the system seems less relevant.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just to throw in the mix, though its not the same exactly there are some parallels with the environment causing people to do horrific things.

    In war, soldiers may rape women along their campaigns, even if outside of conflict the soldiers are ordinary people.

    In prisons, rape is not uncommon, even if outside of prisons many of the inmates would not identify as being homosexual.

    In New Orleans, child rape and abduction increased after the hurricane which dismembered the 'law and order' of society. Even if the people who perpetrated these crimes were just a few weeks earlier just ordinary people.

    Whilst I think putting people in a position where they can is obviously more likely to bring the bad ones out of the woodwork, I think it's also true - to a greater or less extent - that putting people in environments can actually change their behaviour and what they see as acceptable. Look at those women who were abusing nursery school kids just because they could get away with it. From what I knew of the case, they had no history of abuse before their jobs it just became a thrill seeking thing because they could. So they weren't the typical lifelong sexual predator looking to get into a position of power, they were generally ordinary people who got a sick kick out of abusing their power - like so many who have come before and like so many who will come after.

    I find it scary, but also plausible, that we are all 'monsters', just haven't been put into the right environments yet.
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