Jon Venebables

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That assumes it's an issue of time, rather than the methods used to rehabilitate someone. And what usually happens in cases like this is that the rehabilitation seems to come second to appeasing the angry mob, which is also exactly what happened with the trial in the first place. If someone had spent the first half of your childhood with terrible, abusive parents, what would make anyone think the way to rehabilitate them would be to spend the second half behind bars?
    But they didn't spend it behind bars, they were "rahabilitated" perhaps Venables needed more rehabilitation than Thompson, maybe he just wasn't ready to be released. Maybe he couldn't be rehabilitated, in which case he didn't need to be in a secure unit or behind bars, what he needed was a secure ward in a hospital. And if you read my earlier posts i did say this!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    They were behind bars. Their rooms were locked every night, which is what happens in prison.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Big Gay wrote: »
    because they learnt to stop crying, or 'get something to cry about"
    Yes, so did i....but i never went around looking for babies to kill and torture.

    Katralla: Whether they are purely evil or just took the initiative to do something evil isn't even an issue here. They commited a crime, rehabilitation was tried and one of them doesn't seem to have reoffended so it worked for him (and good for him i say). But in Venables case i think it was either too soon for him to be released or he needs medical help. How many times do i have to say this, i'm beginning to feel like a broken record now
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Amira wrote: »
    You are totally missing my point! I'm not asking for harsher punishments although maybe they could be used as a deterent. But right now we are looking at a case where they deemed a man who murdered AND mutililated a baby to a point where his own mother couldnt identify him and he did this as a child. They tried rehabilitating him but obviously released him too soon because now as a fully grown and "rehabilitated" adult he has reoffended.

    Do we know what he has reoffended for though?

    It's worth bearing in mind he would be on licence, with conditions, and all sorts of things can break that. I heard a rumour that he was in a bar fight and so that was why he had broken his licence, but there are other cases where someone could break their licence by:

    - getting a speeding ticket
    - talking to the media
    - going online

    etc. etc.

    So it's not for sure if he has gone out and murdered someone else, so we can't say that they obviously released him too soon. He has a life sentence and can be returned to jail at any point.

    The point I was trying to make earlier, is that yes, it was a horrific killing made all the worse because they're so young - but what if we entertain the idea for a moment that maybe they weren't intrinsically evil as the Daily Mail would have you believe - maybe they two were just young, fucked up children - victims in their own way. Kudos to everyone you know who has a fucked up childhood too not lashing out but that doesn't take away their issues does it?

    Maybe they do need to be kept in a psychiatric ward, but really its for the public prosecuters and judges to work out. If it was the case that he got in a bar fight because hey, these things happen, and got returned to jail then really why does the public have any interest in knowing that?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hindsight is great, isn't it Amira?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Amira wrote: »
    Katralla: Whether they are purely evil or just took the initiative to do something evil isn't even an issue here.

    I disagree. Perhaps the issue of evil isn't an issue for you but, I think it is for many people. Questions of evil, nature/nurture, retribution/rehabilitation, those are the issues I think the recent interest in this case brings up.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Hindsight is great, isn't it Amira?
    Care to elaborate?

    Shyboy: I never assumed he did go out and murder someone, i was under the impression that it was a serious breach of his terms of release but apart from that i never made any assumptions. After commiting such a heinous crime, being rehabilitated, given a new identity and a second chance of having a normal life, i would think any sane person would steer clear of anything that would breach the terms of release and would want to leave the past in the past. I would do whatever i could to leave the past in the past and make a fresh start. I really don't care what it is he's done, i just hope for the publics safety and for his own sake the judges and prosecutors make the right call.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Amira wrote: »
    Yes, so did i....but i never went around looking for babies to kill and torture.

    An interesting implication. Making it premeditated certainly ramps up the evilness.
    But in Venables case i think it was either too soon for him to be released or he needs medical help. How many times do i have to say this, i'm beginning to feel like a broken record now

    We have an interesting concept in the country, it's called "being innocent until proven guilty"

    Venables was recalled because of serious allegations. I'm not aware of the case having been tried.

    But, assuming he did whatever it is he's accused of, that doesn't mean his rehabilitation failed, whatever he did is almost certainly unrelated to his earlier crime.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Big Gay wrote: »
    An interesting implication. Making it premeditated certainly ramps up the evilness.

    From what i remember it was believed to be premeditated...so does that change how you feel suddenly? It shouldn't in my opinion
    We have an interesting concept in the country, it's called "being innocent until proven guilty"

    Venables was recalled because of serious allegations. I'm not aware of the case having been tried.

    But, assuming he did whatever it is he's accused of, that doesn't mean his rehabilitation failed, whatever he did is almost certainly unrelated to his earlier crime.

    Really? The way the media goes on about things, you'd expect it to be the other way around!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think premeditation makes a crime worse.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Amira wrote: »

    Really? The way the media goes on about things,

    You seem to have missed out the word "trashy"
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    I think premeditation makes a crime worse.

    But as people on this thread keep saying "they were children" to me it doesn't make a difference whether they are adults or children, the fact that they had the capacity to carry out such an "adult" crime means they should be held responsible. Kids that age are having sex and becoming parents these days, what's the difference? You commit adult actions, you should be prepared for the fact that you very well may have to carry adult responsibilities
    You seem to have missed out the word "trashy"

    So we're calling Sky News trashy these days? Remind me to keep up ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Murdoch owned media? Yes. very trashy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Amira wrote: »
    But as people on this thread keep saying "they were children" to me it doesn't make a difference whether they are adults or children, the fact that they had the capacity to carry out such an "adult" crime means they should be held responsible. Kids that age are having sex and becoming parents these days, what's the difference? You commit adult actions, you should be prepared for the fact that you very well may have to carry adult responsibilities



    So we're calling Sky News trashy these days? Remind me to keep up ;)


    And they were held to account. They spent the rest of their childhood in a prison. Yes, admittedly it was probably a comfy prison but it was prison nontheless.
    The fact that only one of them has fucked up since being released is amazing.

    And 10 year olds are having sex and babies now are they? :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Hindsight is great, isn't it Amira?
    Amira wrote: »
    Care to elaborate?

    Yeah. On the day before the allegations came out, did you think (or have evidence) that either had (or would) reoffend?

    Sure we can look back now and say - well d'uh it's obvious, after all they had a comfy life etc yadda yadda yadda. Point is that, so far, it seems to have worked for one of them. So, was their rehab a failure or a success - after all both boys committed this heinous crime.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is how i think and feel, i will stand by my beliefs the same as each and every one of you. I never post in P&D because none of you share similar views as me and i don't know why i thought it would be any different this time.

    I'm not posting anymore on this subject because i really can't be bothered going back over the same things i've already said only to have to repeat them yet again.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nobody, Literally - if general society is neither informed or qualified to comment in any context, no matter how many times they read "The Sun" - "Daily Fail" which sensationalise the word shite. Facts are all that matter, and are always worth waiting for.

    There is no excuse for this crime.

    Plainly...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »

    that is interesting
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    He probably needs to be in a high security mental hospital, if that article is anything to go by.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    If that is true, it is in itself a pretty grim picture. A child having a better existence locked up in an institution? What an horrific picture of a childhood for anyone.

    I also question why you think the public have a right to know about any subsequent crimes either of them have committed or allegedly committed -why is it in the public's interest to know?

    It's not so much I think it's in the publics interest to know about any other alleged crimes they may have committed it's more why should we be protecting a criminal? If any random person committed a crime they wouldnt be protected.
    Fair enough nothing should be mentioned about any alleged crimes till a trials been held but if after that Venables,Thompson or any random person is found guilty they shouldn't be protected.
    I just dont understand the mentality where the criminals rights are above the victims.
    Bottom line is no matter how old Venables and Thompson were they should have been punished,but they were'nt and what kinda message does that send out to them aswell as the general public.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Yeah. On the day before the allegations came out, did you think (or have evidence) that either had (or would) reoffend?

    Sure we can look back now and say - well d'uh it's obvious, after all they had a comfy life etc yadda yadda yadda. Point is that, so far, it seems to have worked for one of them. So, was their rehab a failure or a success - after all both boys committed this heinous crime.

    Dude how do you know if they have been rehibalitated or not? It aint in the publics interest for you to know so for all you know the other 1 could be doing life for murder,rape anything.
    And for the record I dont think any1 is arguing against Venables and Thompson having a bad childhood and them being young when it happined.
    I just feel that they were never punished,a few years in a secure unit playing on there xbox aint punishment,and as for whoeva said there doors were locked at night lol are you serious,they were out most weeks on day trips out with social services.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sounds like a punishment to me, compared to the childhood I had myself and the childhood my child has. Their whole childhoods sound pretty rough to me, from birth to adulthood, it doesn't seem like there was much good about it.

    These boys were locked up at 10 years old, which I have to see as punishment. An x-box isn't any kind of replacement for the cuddles a child can get from a loving parent at any time, day or night when they need it. A day trip with social services does not equate to having a real friend who knows you and loves you and doesn't think you are some child-killer come call for you in the afternoon to go and do 'normal' things like climb a tree or make a den.

    What do people want as punishments? And specifically punishments for children?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Amira wrote: »
    This is how i think and feel, i will stand by my beliefs the same as each and every one of you. I never post in P&D because none of you share similar views as me and i don't know why i thought it would be any different this time.

    I'm not posting anymore on this subject because i really can't be bothered going back over the same things i've already said only to have to repeat them yet again.

    For the record ive read your posts on this thread and id say your points are spot on and I wouldn't worry about all the 'I'm a liberal anti mail reader' cause they just repeat the same old 'they were 10'.
    Btw I don't have the answer for how they should have been punished but I sure as hell know that how they have handles it wasn't the way to go.
    What I do find hard to believe is that the secure unit Venables spent 8 years in was only 13 miles or so away from James Bulger's mums house.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    Sounds like a punishment to me, compared to the childhood I had myself and the childhood my child has. Their whole childhoods sound pretty rough to me, from birth to adulthood, it doesn't seem like there was much good about it.

    These boys were locked up at 10 years old, which I have to see as punishment. An x-box isn't any kind of replacement for the cuddles a child can get from a loving parent at any time, day or night when they need it. A day trip with social services does not equate to having a real friend who knows you and loves you and doesn't think you are some child-killer come call for you in the afternoon to go and do 'normal' things like climb a tree or make a den.

    What do people want as punishments? And specifically punishments for children?
    K I had a pretty shitty childhood and I know alotta people whose childhoods were worse but still no1 has turned out doing what they did.
    I just find it hard to believe that there punishment was so long in a childs secure unit when in reality I spent time in a childs secure unit also,but I was in places like that cause I was a lil annoying harmless child,I knew right from wrong but was cheeky and got into trouble,but only harmless stupid trouble,not sick shit like those 2 did.
    Seriously my view might be tainted cause I remember when it happined and have read alotta documents and other stuff about the case,after reading the transcripts to there police interviews and finding out exactley what happined the feelings of anger and hate over rides any sympathy I might have felt about there bad childhoods and there age.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Having spent time in a similar unit, did it not feel like a punishment to you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,329 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A child ending up in secure care has to do considerably more than "harmless, stupid trouble". Unless you want to wow us with an example.
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