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It's a bit like the fatism thing in the other thread. It probably is a form of discrimination, but in the great scheme of things, when considered in light of all the other injustices that occur in the world daily, it's not close to being the most serious.
Just boycott nightclubs that do it, if you're that bothered.
I think just proclaiming there's a 'pay gap' is an oversimplification of a nuanced topic. I know statistics can be manipulated to prove just about anything, but SG's link shows that up until the age of thirty-four women are on average paid a bit more - I wouldn't take it as gospel, but it should give us pause for thought. I'm sure someone'll be able to produce statistics to the contrary, I just don't think the idea that women are being paid less in an axiom.
Here.
So, in that spirit, right back atcha. You'd think people would be against discrimination in general. But no, the second you suggest an instance in which one sex may be discriminated against, you get a flood of people of the other sex pointing out all of the discrimination that favours them. As if that makes it alright.
I'm not quite sure I was able to make sense of that - it's probably just me. Are you for or against bringing up discrimination against men when discrimination against women is brought up?
So that's why I think it's worth raising that women suffer a lot more discrimination than men do - because other than night club entry fees and car insurance, there don't seem to be too many other instances of men being discriminated against. I'm against discrimination - but only when it's serious. Which this clearly isn't.
I think you have to provide evidence that women are, in fact, in the position you're currently purporting them to be in. I don't necessarily think that they aren't, but you're going to have to go a bit further than just asserting that they are.
It seems to me at the moment that there's a disputed discrepancy of pay on the table, but not much more.
I'm against it being brought up in some sort of "you've got nothing to complain about" way, as it so often is. As some sort of competition as to who has it worse.
Also depends what you mean by appropriate.
It's certainly not a valid deductive inference to say "charging men higher entry fees is not discrimination because women are victims of discrimination in other spheres which are of greater importance". Clearly that's faulty reasoning.
But still it might be appropriate, insofar as, if people are concerned about discrimination, it might be helpful to point out that there are far more pressing issues of discrimination that ought to be addressed, and so in the great scheme of things, this sort of thing is a minor annoyance that you deal with by not patronising those establishments which have these rules. As men are in general not a persecuted minority in our society, this probably is quite far down the list of things we need to lobby our politicians about.
Oh, and also that no one was up in arms about the original post - I didn't see anyone saying it was right, or fair. The uproar was mainly about SG's ridiculous (and factually inaccurate) post about women and their 'choices'.
Maybe, but it's also probably the single easiest discrimination we can deal with. Most club owners probably don't even realise they're breaking the law. The gender pay gap is complex. Parent's access to children is complex. Deliberately charging more for one group than another is something that is a simple problem with simple solutions, so there is no excuse for not dealing with it really.
Ah yes, I forgot about that.
But it doesn't seem to take much to seemingly turn two groups against each other, when we really should be opposing discrimination generally.
Ah, OK. In that case I agree. Very little is achieved in pointing out that Africans are starving if I'm complaining about hunger pains because I've no money to eat.
I don't know whether women as women suffer loads of oppression. I personally feel I experience more discrimination on the basis of my race than my gender. So I don't want to commit myself on that question really.
I think a couple of discussions have developed: a broader one about gender discrimination in general, and the OP's topic about nightclubs.
I agree that the OP's example of discrimination is not particularly egregious. Someone might be able to make a thin-edge argument, I suppose.
On the broader question of discrimination in general: I'm not sure we've established that women are more discriminated against. It's often trotted out as an axiom, but I'm sceptical of its validity.
Beyond that, it gets very difficult to prove the case convincingly, because a lot of what people will say about it is either anecdotal, or just sounds a a bit wishy-washy. My feeling is that there is still a fair amount of social and cultural oppression of women, but it's hard to prove and lacking in statistical backing, so I'm left saying - I just have an inkling. I don't expect that inkling to be persuasive to anyone, however.
Of course it's fucking descrinination
It's risk assment based on gender, that's a huge generaLIEsation.
The fact I've got a cock and not a cunt means I'll pay more. Where as risk assemesnt based on my the car I drive, the miliage I do, the amount of prangs I've had is descrimination on based on my individual circumstances and my ability as a driver.
So do you think they shouldn't be able to make those kinds of assessments with respect to age either? Is that ageism?
I'm not sure myself, just wondering. It seems to be consistent that if we think it's unfair to take people's gender into account, we shouldn't take their age into account either. :chin:
Of course they shouldn't. It's just as bad.
Most insurance companies use young drivers to prop up cheap quotes for older drivers who they're also trying to sell home insurance and the like.
If we can use statistics to allow women cheaper quotes for insurance why can we no use statistics to pay women less where they're not going to be as productive, for example the army where women are far more likely to get injured?
Statistically (according to their figures, I can't comment on whether or not that is correct - with insurance companies who the hell knows) males are involved in more accidents, so they pay more for insurance. It'd only be discrimination if statistically males and females were equally likely to be involved in an accident, and were only charged more based on their sex.
Like I said, it might not be right, but it isn't the same thing.
Hmmm. This is a really interesting question,I've never given it much thought before. I have conflicting intuitions.
Insurance is about risk assessment, no? If I have a pre-existing medical condition, my health insurance will cost me more. If I live in a dodgy area, my home insurance will be more. So if my age and my gender mean that I am more likely to make a claim, isn't it only reasonable that my premiums will be higher?
The analogy with pay is not a good one, because insurance premiums are about making predictions and assessing risk, whereas we pay people for work they have actually performed. I wouldn't object to performance related pay, so that if people were found to be less productive in their jobs they would be paid a lower salary, but that kind of thing has to be retrospective, not predictive.
Actually a good comparison is that if you take out health insurance, women generally pay more than men, because they are likely to get pregnant, which carries its own set of risks, and they are thus more likely to incur medical costs.
No it's still descrimination. It's just you are legitimising that descrimination by means of statistics.
Not when advertising for a job with a salary.
On avergage men are stronger and have more stamina then women and are more suited to physical labour. It think you'd have a hard time arguing otherise. So why if I was advertising for a job as a labourer would it be unnaceptable for me to put Men £400/wk Women £300/wk?
I tell you why. It's because the applicants for that job deserve to be assessed on an individual basis. It should be no different with insurance.
If you were to advertise the job with different salaries, I agree that would be wrong. But once people started the job, if they performed at different rates, I wouldn't necessarily object to people being paid more if they were more productive. That kind of judgment can be made retrospectively by assessing people's past performance, and anyway, like I said, salaries are backward looking - most people get paid in arrears, for work already performed. Insurance assessments are necessarily predictive, which means the statistics will be prone to a certain amount of generalisation.
Also - I lived in the USA for five years, and my health insurance premiums were more expensive because of a pre-existing medical condition. Do you think that's fair?
Is it discrimination to charge a 90-year old with a dodgy heart more for life insurance than an 18 year old who's fit as a butcher's dog? I know that's an extreme example, but it's the same principle.
In real terms it'd make no difference because the women would be very unlikely to get the job at all.
Men also typically spend more time behind the wheel. I've never seen the numbers myself but I have heard that women typically get in more accidents per-miles-driven. It might not be true but it's worth taking under consideration.
Men being charged more for insurance because they are 'statistically more likely to get in an accident' is just a way for the insurance to make more money.
It's true! There's be uproar if there were men-only events on.
That said, it's usually stuff like aqua aerobics, so you're not missing much
I would should I decide to take up rock climbing again and walked into my schools gym on a Wednesday night...