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Video reveals G20 police assault on man who died
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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I notice the words "Full investigation in tomorrow's Guardian" at the bottom. I await with interest to see what more they have.
I've openly seen riot police officers shout out rude and insulting terms to people and use very unnecessary force a fair few times. From my experience the Welsh riot police seem to be the worst for this.
Regarding the G20 topic, I feel sad to say that I'm not surprised and even sadder to know that nothing will be done about it.
Even one pushing a young female so forcefully she flew backwards and hit the ground after trying to get to her ?boyfriend who was pinned to the ground by cops.
They don't seem to always be able to control their actions in the heat of the moment - which I would have thought would be a huge part of their training.
Sickening.
The unfortunate problem is, in these kind of situations, that it's your word against theirs and you can probably guess who the court is more likely to believe. Hopefully this video evidence will bring some form of justice forward.. but going by previous experience I doubt it will
It's one thing using a baton on someone facing you, threatening you or throwing stuff at you.
Doing it to someone walking away.....
Still, this murder ('cause that's what it is- commit GBH that kills someone and it's murder) can just join a long list of police thuggery and brutality that has resulted in death. Hillsborough anyone?
If it led to the heart attack the peeler should be charged with manslaughter
And with the greatest respect I hope this will lead you to re consider the fact that force, like the type used against Ian Tomlinson, should not be used unless totally neccessary; which means in the presence of genuine threat or further violence.
You never know who is vulnerable (we can't see inside people after all), there was far too much of this going on on bishopsgate and at bank. The kettles and force used were far too arbitrary.
But I do not believe there is much wrongdoing here. Fact is, the police are not respected or feared in this day and age which - in my opinion - they should be.
I fully support that police SHOULD be allowed to use force to control thugs, protestors, drunks, general troublemakers. A polite "can you move along please" should obviously be attempted first, but then what are they supposed to do. A push, a shove, a whack to the legs with a baton.. all perfectly warranted actions if you ask me if the person in question does not cooperate.
Many a time I have been out on a night out and witnessed tussles and fights break out between drunken revellers, many of whom - im sorry to say - are absolute scum. Destroying our once great nation turning it into a crime filled danger zone. In my opinion, this is down to three things. Parenting, Schooling, and human rights gone mad - meaning the police are unable to do their job without fear of being brought up for treating someone unfairly.
In this particular case, I can see why it has caused many people to be outraged. I am as deeply saddened by the man losing his life as anyone, and my sympathy's go out to his family and friends. I concede his death was ultimately probably brought upon by the fact he was pushed over by the police. Although also caused by a huge piece of misfortune and bad luck.
When I see the video footage, I see a possibly drunken individual, clearly NOT cooperating with the police. Im not saying he is a criminal or doing anything PARTICULARLY wrong, but none-the-less, he was in no hurry to get out of their way. Especially when he could clearly see there was a large protest going on and the police were trying to do their job controlling it. There he is, ambling along, even stopping at one point - hands in pockets. Im sure the police asked him to move along, and at one point in the footage, it looks to me like the man stopped to say something to the police. Maybe we will never know what was said. But he could well have swore obscenities at the officers.
It is very unfortunate that this man died as a result of a push to the ground.. 999 times out of 1000 this would not end in death. In this case it appeared as though it has. But the police officer obviously did not mean the gentleman any harm. He was using force to get him to move on.
If the police officer involved is indeed charged with assault or worse, then what is that going to do to our already 'pushover' police force. They will have no choice but to think carefully before even pushing a troublemaker during a riot - IN CASE OF INURING THEM. It't not their fault. Just the way they are forced to behave.
I just think the police force should be allowed to use force to make their presence felt. & I would love it if the day came when police were feared and respected again...
...and chavs no longer sought ASBO's as a type of accolade amongst their friends.
Thanks
Was the cop totally out of order? Yes, utterly.
Did the cop cause the man's death? Who knows. If he'd died from a blow to the head then probably. A heart attack? It's not something normally associated with being pushed over, but it's something we're going to have to wait to find out.
Whatever happens, the man is a disgrace to the uniform. Like I said before, it's one thing using force to arrest someone or to quell a riot. Pushing someone like that is uncalled for, if he'd said/done something illegal he should have been detained and arrested, something they could have done quite easily as they weren't surrounded by protestors at that moment.
amongst the rest of the conjecture in your post, this is the worst bit. How do we prove if he meant the guy harm or not? We can't assume because he's a police officer he's oing what he's trained to do etc. - they are human and lose their rag like anyone else, and the stories of police venting their frustrations at the protests are all over.
I think any inquiry will revolve around that really, was the police officer merely following his training and it's just an unfortunate incident, or was it a case of this PC losing his temper and venting this in a physical way because he can?
and what if he wasnt in such a hurry to get out of their way .. he was still moving forwards. also, i don't see how shoving someone with such force that their going to topple over to the ground infront of you gets them out of sight any quicker..
he didnt mean him any harm? he shoved him face first to the ground when his hands were his pockets, was hardly rational and called for
if the man did die as a result of that push the policeman should go down for manslaughter and ill be glad to see it, i could go on all day about instances of police brutality that absolutely fuck all has been done about .. at least time they're caught red handed and shown nationwide!
its nothin but a case of the police getting 'trigger-happy' ..
You are full of shit. Nothing else to add.
Fear? You actually think that the police should be feared?
Feared by law abiding citizens? Feared by those that they are there to protect?
I don't think fear is ever an appropriate feeling towards the police.
The police are there to protect and serve, launching innocent people for no reason is not something that they're allowed to do. Even if the person in question didn't die (which you say 999 times out of 1000 I agree is true) it's still awful to watch. These people are supposed to be the ones you rely on when trouble kicks off.
I didn't see the bloke causing a scene, or going against the police, he was literally walking away! He wasn't rioting or throwing any objects so why did they have to use such force?
I personally don't think our police are such pushovers, I reckon the reason criminals or law-breakers get off so lightly is because of out-of-touch-with-the-real-world judges with no common sense and because of over-crowded prisons. I have witnessed riot police in action a fair few times and I still stick by my comment that they are just your average thug with police gear on.
I feel this bloke was co-operating with police as you can kinda see they've told him to move away and he was walking to where he was told to go. Granted, you can tell he was probably drunk and moving pretty slowly but that doesn't deserve getting the treatment he did. Some of these people get overwhelmed by the power trip, I believe it's a bit like meeting a prick bouncer at a club.
Sooo tbh in not entirely suprised at all by the action of the police in this instance - i'm more suprised that they bothered to give him CPR after he collapsed...
If you have ever been on a protest you will know that the majority of protesters are not interested in causing damage or attacking the police, sadly you they do attract some that are interested in that kind of activity. You would probably also know that the police can be rough, heavy heanded, unreasonable, provocative.
Now that the officer that pushed Mr Tomlinson has come forward it will be interesting to hear the justification for his actions, I'm sure there will be an attempt to justify it. In my eyes, there isnt any though.
I always believe that force shouldn't be used except when neccessary
However, I accept it has to be used. And when it has to be used I'm a believer it should be used in such force as to quell the problem - anything else is a false humanity which just leads to force going back and forth causing continual suffering.
I think you were right to be a little skeptical of claims of police violence but it has been frustrating for those of us who always knew this was the case to have come up against a wall of 'well they deserved it' (which you didn't say or imply I hasten to add) and 'well regrettably the police had no other option' (which was my interpretation of your view).
Anyway this isn't meant to be a dig at you or your view on the policing (or indeed to represent anything you said as particularly unreasonable; I don't agree and I think the evidence will prove me right in this case, but I in no way meant to imply anything you stated was unreasonable).
It was just that I wondered if those who had now changed your view on the situation, as evidence is now emerging not just of what happened to Ian Tomlinson but of the repression of the press
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/apr/08/g20-protest-police-apology-photographers
And when the documentation that is being prepared gets to the House you will see the use of anti-terror legislation on bystanders at Bishopsgate to get the public to delete images of police.
Incidentally I am the last person who would (even if I wanted to, which I wouldn't) be able to say 'I told you so' about Ian Tomlinson. I went to Bank the day after on my lunch break to see people posting placards with 'Police Murderers' on the Monument, which I condemned to everyone I saw and praised the police because as far as I was concerned, he died of natural causes and they had to stand there and take this.
No the police weren't anything like the Genoa crowd at the G8; they were the hired thugs of a corrupt Italian politician, from a police department with an entrenched and long running history of fascism (literal, not perjorative). But we hold our police to a higher standard, or what is there to defend?
Like I said before, there are two sides to the Police and their tactics. The one here in question is the boot boys, who love a good row, and the commanders, who talk up a fight, manipulate the media, use repressive laws and powers out of context, mount cover ups, then try to act all pious and apologetic when things go wrong.
The mad dog doesn't just need to fall over this, so do the men who let him loose and tried everything to let him get away with it.
Respected by law abiding citizens, feared by thugs.
Too many times have I seen police officers insulted, assaulted, or had their vehicles attacked with missiles. Just for patrolling their beat.
It would be good for the country if thugs, chavs, vandals, troublemakers etc were actually afraid of the police.
I know I am deviating away from the main story here, but I was just clarifying that point.
Back to the G20 attack story...
At the end of the day it is very difficult to tell exactly what happened and was said from that video evidence we have.
If indeed the man was getting out of the way, and did not do OR say anything to provoke the police, then I concede that the police officer did act harshly and there wasnt any need to push him over like that.
..However my final point to say is... if you saw a protest going on, and a group of riot police... would YOU go and walk right into/in front of, the police?? Shields, batons, dogs et all. Even if it was on your route home.. go a different way! I know I would.
He was was pushed over at the end of the road from the RBS heading away from the cordon. So it's concievable that he was actually trying to walk home a different way then what we saw was him walking away.
It just doesn't look that way to me from the video.
He looks to me like he is one of these assholes I frequently see when asked to move along by police just say;
"i can walkdown here if I like, you cant tell me what to do" etc etc...
asking for trouble.
If that isn't the case then fair enough. Im just saying, you cant really tell what happened. Im just going on what I see in the video.
I can appreciate your underlying point - that the police don't have a deterrant affect upon anti-social behaviour and are seen as ineffective in preventing it.
I think that the argument is badly misplaced here, not just on the Tomlinson tragedy but on large parts of the policing of the G20 protests (not the entirety, even in these circumstances one should remember that some sections of the police did do a good job, and that they ARE capable of doing a good job as shown on the Saturday march).
It's all to do with a type of cop - the anti-social thugs you are railing against aren't just spitting on the uniform, some of them are wearing it.
It just gets worse - before the video came out people were queuing up to discredit all protester accounts, to claim that it was an indymedia conspiracy, to roll out the standard line that the Police did 'a good job in difficult circumstances they did what had to be done etc...'.
People worthy of such confidence do not need to obscure their faces and identity tags when performing a public service.
There's more to come on this and we haven't even touched Bishopsgate yet.