Home Politics & Debate
If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨
Options

Sexist language

**helen****helen** Deactivated Posts: 9,235 Supreme Poster
Mione is back with a rant about Mr and Mrs.

Would be good to hear your thoughts on this. :)
«1

Comments

  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As a Spaniard I have always been quite appalled that women in Britain, and indeed in much of the Western world and elsewhere, lose their surname and take their husbands' when they marry (in Spain a woman's surname stays with her for life regarding of marital status).

    In fact I find it an extraordinary, derogatory, draconian, patronising and demeaning tradition. To hell with with the family history of the woman getting married. She's now the 'property' of the husband, and tagged just as that.

    I'm very unlikely to ever get married, but if I did I would neither expect nor want my partner to take my name.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    As a Spaniard I have always been quite appalled that women in Britain,

    'Appalled'? Like you would feel 'appalled' by, say, female circumcision?
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's nice to live in a country where surnames don't change and titles aren't used. I'll always be daddy's girl. :D

    Aladdin: How do kids get their surnames in Spain? I think I've read it somewhere but don't remember now.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would query her use of language:
    but there are loads of examples of the way women are oppressed without us really noticing.

    And then goes onto say about woman having 'man' in it. Whilst it may not be ideal, it's the accepted norm, it's hardly 'hidden oppression' when you consider what oppression really is.

    I don't really have an opinion on the mr / mrs thing, probably because I'm a man. I think a woman is entitled to call herself miss / mrs / ms / dr / el presidente or whatever. With all the real issues facing women around the world I would have picked something a bit more prominent than the word mrs.

    Like female circumcision perhaps. I am probably being naive but I don't see how being a mrs or a miss or a ms is grossly depriving women of their human rights. In some cultures it goes the other way and men take the women's surname, is that grossly depriving those men of their human rights? Probably not.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It doesn't bother me at all. Times have changed now and you have a choice - lots of people don't change their name when they get married (or hyphenate which I find incredibly annoying - just choose one or the other!)

    I personally don't feel repressed at all - by anyone - so it wouldn't make me feel that way if I took my partners name

    As for losing your identity - I think the new identity you've created by marrying the person you love is a wonderful thing.

    I'd find it derogatory and demeaning if I was FORCED to get married and FORCED to take my partner's name but that's not the case. You have a choice - if you don't want to change your name then don't do it.

    The whole tradition of marriage and the laws that go alongside it is incredibly old fashioned IMO, not just the names part
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    kangoo wrote: »
    It doesn't bother me at all. Times have changed now and you have a choice - lots of people don't change their name when they get married (or hyphenate which I find incredibly annoying - just choose one or the other!)

    I personally don't feel repressed at all - by anyone - so it wouldn't make me feel that way if I took my partners name

    As for losing your identity - I think the new identity you've created by marrying the person you love is a wonderful thing.

    I'd find it derogatory and demeaning if I was FORCED to get married and FORCED to take my partner's name but that's not the case. You have a choice - if you don't want to change your name then don't do it.

    The whole tradition of marriage and the laws that go alongside it is incredibly old fashioned IMO, not just the names part
    I agree with all of this - especially the hyphenating thing :p.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Marriage is pretty old fashioned and I'm not too fussed on it, though most girls I've dated have said they want (not necessarily with me ;):p) to get married in a church (even if they're not religious) and have kids. So maybe it's an issue of 'sexist socialisation' in that we entrench women into thinking they need to fulfill certain gender roles and I would definitely buy into that (I'd go further and say it goes both ways though - a 'stay at home dad' will normally not be seen as a 'proper' man, and like Flashman said a while back if a boat is sinking if a man wants to get on a lifeboat in front of a woman he is dishonourable or whatever).

    I think looking at isolated things like words misses the bigger picture that society has had for a long time and still has ideas about what being a 'man' and a 'woman' is, and until they are gone completely people will still feel like they need to fit a certain stereotype to a greater or lesser extent. But it's endemic to whole society - the majority of teachers in school are female for example further reinforcing this 'mother' portayal of women to children in particular. I think there should be a big national drive to get more men into teaching because it's important to have that balance at a developmental stage.

    On top of that I think the sexualisation of women should be curbed so they are not seen as sex objects, you only need to watch adverts for 5 minutes to see how obvious it is. Even here on thesite when they were doing the redesign not too long ago, they had a skinny girl in a bra on one of the proposed pages. It is unfortunate that sex sells but as long as we continue to allow this prescribed role of what a woman should be (a sex object, should be submissive, should look after children etc.) and what a man should be (should go to work, should be the 'bread winner', needs to be strong and assertive) the whole cycle just reinforces itself.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There seems to be a small hint at the end of her writing which suggests that anyone who changes their surname or chooses Mrs is just towing the party line without any thought to it.

    I won't be changing my name if I get married as a) I like it and b) my status will be Dr and that makes it a lot easier (until I become a surgeon). Can't really say I'm bothered about the choices other people make, so long as the choice is available to them.

    I dunno, I've just sat in an HIV clinic so thinking about the invisible cloak of oppression in perspective just makes me feel that some individuals are lucky enough to be able to worry about things like, "Mrs/Miss/Ms"
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jaloux wrote: »
    It's nice to live in a country where surnames don't change and titles aren't used. I'll always be daddy's girl. :D

    Aladdin: How do kids get their surnames in Spain? I think I've read it somewhere but don't remember now.
    It's rather different to the Western system. You get two surnames in Spain. The first surname is the most important one, and the second surname (what people here believe to be our last name) is only usually quoted in official documents, ID cards, bank accounts etc.

    The first surname is inherited from your father (his first surname). The second from your mother (her first surname).
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    'Appalled'? Like you would feel 'appalled' by, say, female circumcision?
    I guess appalled was the wrong word to use, and a bit strong :D . But I was genuinely shocked when I first learnt about it. It seemed so archaic and patronising.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    The first surname is inherited from your father (his first surname). The second from your mother (her first surname).

    I went out with a Spanish guy, both of his surnames were identical :D
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Incidentally, I don't think the author of the essay was overlooking the far more serious issues of female circumcision, abuse, forced marriages, etc etc etc. To be fair, there is luckily none of that happenning in Britain, and perhaps she was speaking at a 'local' level rather than the plight of women everywhere.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    It's rather different to the Western system. You get two surnames in Spain. The first surname is the most important one, and the second surname (what people here believe to be our last name) is only usually quoted in official documents, ID cards, bank accounts etc.

    The first surname is inherited from your father (his first surname). The second from your mother (her first surname).

    Bit hypocritical - claiming how terrible the British practice is and then saying that in Spain the first (father's name) is the most important one. :D
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    go_away wrote: »
    I went out with a Spanish guy, both of his surnames were identical :D


    Is it the fathers first surname or the mothers first surname that becomes the childs first surname?

    If its always the fathers first, then the child will have the two names of his grandfathers first surnames as his surname, but none of his grandmothers surnames.


    In Iceland (and some other places), a persons surname is literally "Dad's name"'s son/daughter.

    eg: Eidur Gudjonson's father given name is Gudjon. His son would be 'X' Eidurson. His daughter would be 'X' Eidursdottir.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Bit hypocritical - claiming how terrible the British practice is and then saying that in Spain the first (father's name) is the most important one. :D
    To a degree perhaps, though at least a woman gets to keep her family name.

    More people are opting to switch the order of surnames for their offspring, to allow the mother's surname to 'go on'.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    It's rather different to the Western system. You get two surnames in Spain. The first surname is the most important one, and the second surname (what people here believe to be our last name) is only usually quoted in official documents, ID cards, bank accounts etc.

    The first surname is inherited from your father (his first surname). The second from your mother (her first surname).

    :crazyeyes Dont the women feel appalled, patronised and demeaned that their surname isn't as important as the man's surname!

    Or maybe they just get on with it because there's more important things to worry about
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    I guess appalled was the wrong word to use, and a bit strong :D . But I was genuinely shocked when I first learnt about it. It seemed so archaic and patronising.


    Ah ok! :)
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    kangoo wrote: »
    :crazyeyes Dont the women feel appalled, patronised and demeaned that their surname isn't as important as the man's surname!

    Or maybe they just get on with it because there's more important things to worry about
    Maybe some of them do, but there is in my view a very significant difference between a mother's surname coming second in the surname order for one's offspring, and a woman's surname being erased and replaced by that of the man she marries.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yes there are far more pressing issues, even if you are an out and out feminist, but i don't think most women can be bothered to do anything about it these days....the attitude of it all being said and done makes me sick. what about pay gaps? child care? FGM? sex workers' rights? people trafficing for prostitution? rape conviction rates? domestic violence?

    I have changed my surname once in my life time, i will not be doing it again, and i think more women should use ms.
  • Options
    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,283 Skive's The Limit
    I think it's a non argument.

    Women don't have to take any name they don't want to.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    I think it's a non argument.

    Women don't have to take any name they don't want to.

    Other than 'bitch' of course.




















    ;)
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont see why its such a big deal i mean if you love the guy that much to get married to them changin your surname isnt that big of a deal.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hmmm, interesting. I agree with a few others above, who say that it's certainly not something which is forced on women, and I believe the greatest equality comes from choice.

    My choice was to change my name and status when i got married. I was proud to get married, and when we have children, I will want to be part of my family with them, so it was important that we would all have the same surname when that happens. Plus I HATED my maiden name, and would have got it changed formally anyway if I'd not married someone, so I just don't feel bothered in the least with losing a previous 'identity'.
    My mother gave me her surname when I was born, my parents split up when I was young and my mother married someone else and changed her name, so my surname was tied up with 'not belonging' to a family. I do not want my future children to feel like that when they are growing up.

    So I guess there are different stories to consider when assuming that a particular tradition is archaic and demeaning. I 'went along blindly' with tradition to ensure that both myself and my future children belong somewhere and don't feel as abnormal and 'unsafe' as I did growing up.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont see why its such a big deal i mean if you love the guy that much to get married to them changin your surname isnt that big of a deal.
    so then why don't men change their name?

    i might love the person i marry, but i should equally love myself, and my identity as a person asides being someone's wife...
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Incidentally, I don't think the author of the essay was overlooking the far more serious issues of female circumcision, abuse, forced marriages, etc etc etc. To be fair, there is luckily none of that happenning in Britain, and perhaps she was speaking at a 'local' level rather than the plight of women everywhere.

    Yes there is.

    It just happenes behind closed doors.

    I am, always have been and always will be a 'Ms'. My parents used to tell me not to be a Ms because people might think I'm a lesbian, or a feminist. :rolleyes:

    I am also considering changing my surname.

    I sympathise with the article. I don't see how a man's marital status should remain secretive whilst a female's is suggestive as to whether or not she is open to ownership... Yes, the aforementioned sentence sounds extreme and I mean it in more of a historical context than reflective of [Christian] marriage today. I feel a bit infantilised if I am called 'Miss', just like if I'm called a 'girl'. I'm mid twenties, my marital status is my business and I tend to associate 'miss' with a little kid or something. :rolleyes:

    Saying that, I much prefer it when people call me 'sir' (jk). :p
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so then why don't men change their name?

    i might love the person i marry, but i should equally love myself, and my identity as a person asides being someone's wife...

    I guess thats the problem then.
  • Options
    SkiveSkive Posts: 15,283 Skive's The Limit
    Namaste wrote: »
    I don't see how a man's marital status should remain secretive whilst a female's is suggestive as to whether or not she is open to ownership...

    It doesn't.

    This is the thing, you don't have to change your name or title. You have the choice, that's equality.
    Because some women choose to go traditional doesn't mean that choice disapears.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Incidentally, I don't think the author of the essay was overlooking the far more serious issues of female circumcision, abuse, forced marriages, etc etc etc. To be fair, there is luckily none of that happenning in Britain, and perhaps she was speaking at a 'local' level rather than the plight of women everywhere.
    i can't believe i missed that...

    what planet are you on?

    there is a hell of a lot of abuse in the country and the figures just keep rising every year, female circumcision does happen within somali and minority groups within the UK, and is a big problem, forced marriages are happening and don't just happen to those from asian backgrounds.

    why does nobody else see this stuff? its well enough reported but yet everyone glides over it.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blah, blah, blah, blah...

    Where does TheSite find these boring, on-message "feminists" to write this crap? Honestly, the article almost sent me off to sleep. If that's the best article someone can write after spending nearly 3 years at university, it's not a good advertisement for higher education.

    Either take your new husband's name or don't take your new husband's name. Still, I doubt any man would want to marry someone who obsesses so much over something so trivial.
  • Options
    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I thought Aladdin was being facetious with that comment - no?
Sign In or Register to comment.