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For anyone interested in the Israel situation

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
The latest political outlook is fairly right-wing. No one party had a majority to form the knesset (government) and so it depends on a coalition. Now, it's not for me to speculate what that coalition exactly will be, but Al-Jazeera has painted it's own prediction that would indicate that the right-of-centre Likud may form a coalition with more nationalist groups. To compare it to the UK, it's like the conservative party forming a coalition with UKIP (and possibly BNP? Not exactly, but we have less parties with seats in parliament so it's hard to make an exact comparison).

Here's the article:
http://english.aljazeera.com/news/articles/39/Few_peacemakers_in_Israel_s_Knesset.html
The incoming Knesset will have a solid right-wing bloc, made up of Likud with twenty-seven seats, Yisrael Beiteinu with fifteen seats, two ultra-Orthodox parties with sixteen seats and two smaller nationalist parties with seven seats. This bloc has four more than the sixty-one-seat threshold needed to form a coalition.

The center bloc was able to muster forty-one seats. This bloc consists of Kadima with twenty-eight seats and Labor with thirteen seats. The remaining fourteen seats were won by liberal, leftist and Arab national parties.

At the same time, the BBC reports that Hamas are pushing for a long-lasting peace deal (perhaps trying to get it through before the new government?) Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7887380.stm
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Given the worldwide condemnation and expressions of 'disappointment' by our fair leaders when the Palestinians democratically elected Hamas, I look forward to similar cries of despair if the next Israeli government ends up being, as it seems likely, composed of ultra zionist loonies and far right nationalist cunts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Also, apparently Yisrael Beiteinu suggested that people who weren't loyal to the Israeli government should have their citizenship revoked. Would this include journalistic freedom...?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't see any evidence that there planning any restrictions on the freedom of the press. Can you post a link to the comment made about revoking citizenship?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Given the worldwide condemnation and expressions of 'disappointment' by our fair leaders when the Palestinians democratically elected Hamas, I look forward to similar cries of despair if the next Israeli government ends up being, as it seems likely, composed of ultra zionist loonies and far right nationalist cunts.

    I think that it will portrayed as a disappointing but understandbale response to the election, and actions, of Hamas by some people. It will probably be portrayed as evidence of their lack of interest in a peaceful solution by others.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    I don't see any evidence that there planning any restrictions on the freedom of the press. Can you post a link to the comment made about revoking citizenship?

    Well not exactly Jim, it's in that Al Jazeera article which is why I said 'apparently' and the bit about press freedom etc. was my own speculation. I should have made it clearer.

    Imagine if in the UK though there was a law that revoked citizenship depending if you were loyal or not to the country. Where would the line end? If it were the UK I have no doubt the PCs would be arresting journalists left right and centre, 1984 style.

    Here's the 'source'
    Yisrael Beiteinu, for example, ran under the banner of "no citizenship without loyalty," and would like to strip any person who is critical of Israeli policies towards the Palestinians of their citizenship.

    I am not sure that would actually happen - but *if* this right-ring coalition is formed that would seem to be the general direction Israel would be headed in which I for one would argue is not the best direction for peace and freedom. That's my 2p though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think that it will portrayed as a disappointing but understandbale response to the election, and actions, of Hamas by some people. It will probably be portrayed as evidence of their lack of interest in a peaceful solution by others.

    The difference is nobody said that electing hamas was 'understandable' considering the circumstances, and many countries refuse to have international relations with them full stop. I think Aladdin's point was more broad in the sense that it will likely be another show of double standards (*if* this right wing coalition goes in..).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think reactions will show double standards either way. Taking sides in this seems to lead to double standards, because both sides use violence and have used violence in the past. In my experience right wing people support Israel unconditionally and left wing people support Palastine unconditionally. Every discussion on this I've ever heard or been part of seems to end in one side being blamed which, because both sides do the same thing, is a show of double standards.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    "Israelis to elect government more right-wing than last" is a news story in the same category as "bear has shit in woods" in my book. What the hell does anyone expect to happen?

    They're fighting the terrorist regime of Hamas, which wants to see their nation obliterated. Naturally, most people don't particularly fancy being blown to pieces by rockets illegally fired into their country. Inevitably, they're going to vote for the political parties which will defend their nation - and I don't blame them one bit.

    Now I shall sit here and wait for someone to accuse me of being a zionist Nazi.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    "Israelis to elect government more right-wing than last" is a news story in the same category as "bear has shit in woods" in my book. What the hell does anyone expect to happen?

    They're fighting the terrorist regime of Hamas, which wants to see their nation obliterated. Naturally, most people don't particularly fancy being blown to pieces by rockets illegally fired into their country. Inevitably, they're going to vote for the political parties which will defend their nation - and I don't blame them one bit.
    Believe it or not there are many Israelis out there who wholly disagree with Israel's continuing illegal occupation of Palestinian land and with Israel's disproportionate military response to any attack.

    Israelis could choose to vote for a party that seeks to secure a permanent peace with the Palestnians. Instead they continue to elect parties that advocate the continuation of the illegal occupation of Palestine.

    The Palestinians could be accused of the same thing with Hamas of course. So long as we're clear that there is no difference between the two sides.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Israelis could choose to vote for a party that seeks to secure a permanent peace with the Palestnians.
    Just one problem with that suggestion. Hamas want to see the nation of Israel disappear off the face of the earth - any show of weakness on Israel's part will be exploited fully by this terrorist regime. Peace is simply not possible under the current set of circumstances - partly because the Palestinians, by allowing Hamas in, have voted against it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Did you guys miss the first post link to the BBC which said that Hamas have announced they've secured a long-lasting peace deal with Israel? And Israel have said nothing...? The problem with your statement SG is that you are blaming it on Palestinians and Hamas but Hamas was originally a reaction to deeper issues. Why were they allowed to provide aid when nobody else could? Because Israel destroyed the Palestinian infrastructure. Why did they manage to become a political entity in the first place? Because Israel supported them in order to undermine Fatah.

    I think it's wrong of the whole world to view Hamas as simply a terrorist regime. They are on a level playing field with the Israeli government. But one is seen as legitimate and 'doing what it needs to in order to survive' and the other is seen as a bunch of mentalists who are doing it for no real reason other than they like killing. Don't you think members of hamas probably have families? Before all the politics started, Jews and Arabs lived together in communities. It was only the last 60 years where it has been Israel = Jews, Palestine = Arabs.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Did you guys miss the first post link to the BBC which said that Hamas have announced they've secured a long-lasting peace deal with Israel? And Israel have said nothing...?
    Certainly did. Hamas have shown themselves to be devious, mendacious thugs - that is why Israel has said nothing. Why the hell should anyone do business with terrorists like this? The "peace deal" in question is nothing more than a distraction tactic which deserves to be treated with utter contempt.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Certainly did. Hamas have shown themselves to be devious, mendacious thugs - that is why Israel has said nothing. Why the hell should anyone do business with terrorists like this? The "peace deal" in question is nothing more than a distraction tactic which deserves to be treated with utter contempt.

    Ok so because they've got beards and dark skin if they want peace we should blow them up, because that will show them who is boss? I'm not sure where you're going with this.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Just one problem with that suggestion. Hamas want to see the nation of Israel disappear off the face of the earth - any show of weakness on Israel's part will be exploited fully by this terrorist regime. Peace is simply not possible under the current set of circumstances - partly because the Palestinians, by allowing Hamas in, have voted against it.
    Hamas has put the offer of recognising Israel/stopping the calls for its destructions/agreeing to permanent peace on the table several times in the last few years, in exchange for a full withdrawal to 1967 borders.

    Israel will simply not contemplate withdrawing to to the Green Line and time after time ignores such peace offers.

    What else is Hamas supposed to do (other than, arguably, get the same PR company the Israeli government employs)?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Israel has contemplated peace, but with terms Hamas don't accept. Hamas have contemplated peace, but with terms Israel won't accept.

    Israel's have voted in a right-wing government, Hamas have voted in a right wing government.

    It's all the Israeli's fault. It's all Hamas fault.

    Hamas has no option but to fight. Israel has no option but to fight.

    The west ignores Israeli atrocities. The west ignores Hamas atrocities.


    Honestly you could swap the names of the countries and make the same arguments all day long.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Israel has contemplated peace, but with terms Hamas don't accept. Hamas have contemplated peace, but with terms Israel won't accept.

    Israel's have voted in a right-wing government, Hamas have voted in a right wing government.

    It's all the Israeli's fault. It's all Hamas fault.

    Hamas has no option but to fight. Israel has no option but to fight.

    The west ignores Israeli atrocities. The west ignores Hamas atrocities.


    Honestly you could swap the names of the countries and make the same arguments all day long.
    Yeah, perhaps.

    I honestly wonder if I get to live to a grand old age I would ever know peace in the ME. Doesn't look too hopeful.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Possibly. However, if history shows anything it shows that its the hardliners who often bring peace. Trimble was a hard-liner who beat the more moderate John Taylor, Adams was a physical force man and even Hume was on the more-Republican side of the SDLP. And come to that Paisley wasn't soft on terrorism and McGuiness had more blood on his hands than the average abbatoir worker.

    It was Nixon who brought an end to Vietnam.

    Neither De Klerk nor Gorbachev were brought into end their respective systems...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I guess the exception would be:

    "The western world gives $3bn+ in weapons support to [country]. They have cut formal diplomatic relations with the elected party [party]. They consider [party] to be nothing more than a terrorist group."

    Just nitpicking though, your general argument is true.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Israel has contemplated peace, but with terms Hamas don't accept. Hamas have contemplated peace, but with terms Israel won't accept.

    Israel's have voted in a right-wing government, Hamas have voted in a right wing government.

    It's all the Israeli's fault. It's all Hamas fault.

    Hamas has no option but to fight. Israel has no option but to fight.

    The west ignores Israeli atrocities. The west ignores Hamas atrocities.


    Honestly you could swap the names of the countries and make the same arguments all day long.

    qft
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    I guess the exception would be:

    "The western world gives $3bn+ in weapons support to [country]. They have cut formal diplomatic relations with the elected party [party]. They consider [party] to be nothing more than a terrorist group."

    Just nitpicking though, your general argument is true.

    The Arab world supplies money to Hamas and doesn't have diplomatic relations with Israel. The Western world supplies money to Israel and doesn't have diplomatic relations with Hamas
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wut. Most of the Arab world has diplomatic ties with Israel. There were two or three countries I think who cut off relations due to what was going on. You're just stretching your argument when it doesn't hold up at all. I've not seen Egypt or Jordan or Syria being particularly forthcoming with the $billions worth of Jets and nukes.

    We may as well just go the whole way down that route and say 'what the hell does it matter, they're both as bad as each other, lets just leave them to it'. They are both bad, but not both as bad as each other. Not that I'm trying to say that either side is justified but you're just saying 'yea. both stupid. leave them to their own devices' when blatantly one gets effectively carte blanche to treat it like an 'internal matter' and only blowing up UN buildings has caused an investigation, whereas the other is universally condemned.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Israel has diplomatic relations with Egypt and Jordan. No other Arab state has or has ever had diplomatic relations with them.

    Various Arab states (and Iran) have funded suicide bombers, ie weapons deliberately used against civilians.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Israel will simply not contemplate withdrawing to to the Green Line and time after time ignores such peace offers. What else is Hamas supposed to do?
    From the way you'd talk, one would be half-forgiven for being under the impression that Hamas are a collection of lovely cuddly old men with beards without a single war-hungry bone in their bodies. Your analysis completely omits to mention the fact that Hamas has gone back on its word more than once before.

    Give an inch to terrorists and they'll take a mile. That's what happened in Northern Ireland. History will repeat itself if Israel shows weakness at this stage.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    From the way you'd talk, one would be half-forgiven for being under the impression that Hamas are a collection of lovely cuddly old men with beards without a single war-hungry bone in their bodies. Your analysis completely omits to mention the fact that Hamas has gone back on its word more than once before.

    Give an inch to terrorists and they'll take a mile. That's what happened in Northern Ireland. History will repeat itself if Israel shows weakness at this stage.

    But from the way you talk you'd be forgiven for thinking they are just terrorists and nothing more. Most start off as normal people frustrated with the status quo. Like I said in another thread, is anthromorphism or something, where you perceive the enemy as not human, and then it becomes easier to order the killing of a thousand 'nazis' or 'commies' or 'terrorists in caves' etc.

    Although we may be drifting off course, I started the thread specifically relating to the Israeli elections, and my speculation that it may stand in the way of peace in the future.

    The current sitrep is the release of Gilad Shalit *may* be on the cards in exchange for opened borders but it's pretty tense atm. Imagine if a new right wing government was formed in the next few days, that peace deal would likely be thrown out in exchange for some rhetoric about 'No Surrender'. It's easy to shout about no surrender when you have them pinned in and outgunned, though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    But from the way you talk you'd be forgiven for thinking they are just terrorists and nothing more.
    Well then, they'd be pretty close to the truth, wouldn't they?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Well then, they'd be pretty close to the truth, wouldn't they?
    As close as saying the Israeli government and army are State terrorists, despots and mass murderers.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    As close as saying the Israeli government and army are State terrorists, despots and mass murderers.

    Yeah, so both pretty much inaccurate and simplistic? Let's not descend into the same old insults back and forth, probably best to keep this thread focused on the political realities of the election and its ramifications.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Give an inch to terrorists and they'll take a mile. That's what happened in Northern Ireland. History will repeat itself if Israel shows weakness at this stage.

    No it shows that sometimes you have to wade in shit and hold your nose to get peace. But my family went to dozens of funerals. I don't have too. It may not be a perfect peace, and I certainly don't like McGuiness being a Minister of the Crown, rather than rotting in jail. But it's a hell of a lot better than the alternative.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    Yeah, so both pretty much inaccurate and simplistic? Let's not descend into the same old insults back and forth, probably best to keep this thread focused on the political realities of the election and its ramifications.

    On that note, I got an email from avaaz today. I don't think they are particularly political - they're a humanitarian group - but they basically said letting the right wing would be the worst thing that could happen. Without wanting to repeat the whole email, they had read the following sources which starts to paint a scary picture, particularly the nationalistic erspective on making someone who is of a certain ethnic background 'prove' their loyalty to Israel.

    "Key to who will govern Israel: Avigdor Lieberman", Christian Science Monitor (12 February 2009):
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0212/p01s04-wome.html

    Ha'aretz: "Unite to block Lieberman's march on Jerusalem" (1 February 2009)
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060124.html

    See this Hebrew University poll published in December 2008:
    http://www.bicom.org.uk/background/opinion-polls/truman-psr-poll--16-december-2008
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The idea of describing the far-right party as king makers is pretty extreme though isn't it? Who exactly are they going to throw their weight behind if not the ruling party? So how would they be in a position to push the government further to the right?
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