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Greek police run out of tear gas...

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
..as rioting continues into the 7th day (must be 11th day now?).

Story.

FWIW I think the kid getting shot was probably a careless accident, but that was just the catalyst for what's happening now. there is a lot of resentment towards politicians for corruption and the economy, clearly the young people have had enough.

More pics...

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/2008_greek_riots.html

Could this ever happen in the UK?

Comments

  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    Could this ever happen in the UK?

    A backlash from the youth in the UK isn't unimaginable.

    There's a serious gap between generations in this country, with a lot of ill feeling towards youths. It would take something pretty dramatic to kick it off, but it's possible.

    The UK's not a stranger to mob violence.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    [QUOTE=Senor Miguel;2202418
    Could this ever happen in the UK?[/QUOTE]

    Never say never but

    you'll get political riots most people aren't interested enough to take part
    you'll get non-political riots but they tend to be localised and apolitical.

    Its seldom you'll get the two co-joining as they've done in Greece.

    Also no British police are going to stand by and tell their men to only intervene if people are attacked and not protect property, they'd get a grip sooner.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Country A: a citizen is unlawfully killed by policemen. There is public sorrow and perhaps a couple of minor peaceful demonstrations. Several years and one whitewash later, nobody gets even disciplined, let alone charged.

    country B: a citizen is unlawfully killed by policemen. There is public outrage, mass protests and riots. Not 48 hours later the policemen have been arrested and other heads start to roll.


    Some food for thought there...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Country A: a citizen is unlawfully killed by policemen. There is public sorrow and perhaps a couple of minor peaceful demonstrations. Several years and one whitewash later, nobody gets even disciplined, let alone charged.

    country B: a citizen is unlawfully killed by policemen. There is public outrage, mass protests and riots. Not 48 hours later the policemen have been arrested and other heads start to roll.


    Some food for thought there...

    Alternatively country A has the rule of law and removes Governments through elections

    Country B has attempts to remove Government through violence and to subvert the rule of law.

    Depends how you look at it...


    As an aside does anyone know why the peeler opened fire. I did hear there were two peelers were surrounded by a mob of thirty people attacking them with stones and petrol bombs and chanting 'we're going to burn you alive', but given they're prosecuting I assume there is more to it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yes defo happen in England.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Alternatively country A has the rule of law and removes Governments through elections

    Country B has attempts to remove Government through violence and to subvert the rule of law.

    Depends how you look at it...
    Perhaps, but when you reach the point whereby a rule of law is bent to the extent where a jury is told they're not allowed to consider a guilty verdict, alarm bells start ringing.

    Something very disturbing there, and not exactly a vindication of the democratic, just and impartial ways of Country A. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a country where people engaged in vigorous protests against State injustice, even if sometimes violence flared, that a country where such injustices are ignored by the government and muster little more than critical headlines from the press and candle vigils from the public.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Perhaps, but when you reach the point whereby a rule of law is bent to the extent where a jury is told they're not allowed to consider a guilty verdict, alarm bells start ringing.

    They weren't - a coroners court was told they weren't allowed to consider unlawful killing. Actually being told what verdicts are allowed is common and considering the verdicts of soldiers in iraq and Afghanistan being extremely critical of Govt its hard to say coroners are in the Govt's pocket.
    Something very disturbing there, and not exactly a vindication of the democratic, just and impartial ways of Country A. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a country where people engaged in vigorous protests against State injustice, even if sometimes violence flared, that a country where such injustices are ignored by the government and muster little more than critical headlines from the press and candle vigils from the public

    really? I used to live in such a country and frankly they're not nearly as nice as you think.

    everything I've seen about the riots doesn't suggest some concern for a miscarriage of justice but violent attempts to force an elected Government out of power.

    perhaps if someone could give me the circumstances of the killing I may change my mind, but the only version I've seen doesn't really paint a copper randomly shooting innocents, but a couple of scared men using lethal force against a mob they feared were going to kill them
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's one way of seeing it, and maybe it is true. Another way of seeing it is a copper over-reacting, or plain giving one of those punks what he got coming. At the end of the day there have been countless similar attacks and confrontations between police and youths in that area for decades without any other copper feeling the need of shooting a kid at close range with a firearm.

    Incidents of police brutality in Athens are all too common and well documented. Indeed, the local cops are rather infamous for their heavy handness. Perhaps the mass protests were prompted by this last straw, rather than being an orchestrated attempt to bring down the government.

    I don't think that was their aim at all. Do you think the Paris rioters were trying to bring down the French government as well?

    Going back to the general argument of direct action, if the 1.5m+ people demonstrating peacefully against the universally derided plans to go to war on Iraq back in 2003 had 'gone French' the following week, I suspect the government would have listened a little closer, instead of acting against international law and the wishes of just about everyone in Britain.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    That's one way of seeing it, and maybe it is true. Another way of seeing it is a copper over-reacting, or plain giving one of those punks what he got coming. At the end of the day there have been countless similar attacks and confrontations between police and youths in that area for decades without any other copper feeling the need of shooting a kid at close range with a firearm.

    True - but then I've seen one report of why he fired and so don't have enough information to make a decision whether he lost his temper, panicked without reason or whether he fired a warning shot or a real shot (and either may have been justified)
    Incidents of police brutality in Athens are all too common and well documented. Indeed, the local cops are rather infamous for their heavy handness. Perhaps the mass protests were prompted by this last straw, rather than being an orchestrated attempt to bring down the government.

    perhaps, but also the area where the shooting took place is also well known as an anrachist stronghold where locals who disagree are strongarmed into silence and police are routinely ambushed.
    I don't think that was their aim at all. Do you think the Paris rioters were trying to bring down the French government as well?

    Nah that was apolitical thuggery, not all riots are the same (and in fact not all political riots are always to bring down the Government, sometimes they're just to try and push it down a path - for example I don't think many of the students who rioted in the Vietnam War were trying to bring down Wilson, they were however trying to push him into a particular policy direction on Vietnam)
    Going back to the general argument of direct action, if the 1.5m+ people demonstrating peacefully against the universally derided plans to go to war on Iraq back in 2003 had 'gone French' the following week, I suspect the government would have listened a little closer, instead of acting against international law and the wishes of just about everyone in Britain

    possibly, possibly not - perhaps the police would have reacted with rubber bullets and the protesters would have gone home with sore ribs, or perhaps some of them would have petrolled bomb the police and the police would have been burying a twenty year old WPC (and as an aside at the time of the march opinion was pretty evenly divided). But say it had suceeded would you be so sanguine when the million supporters of Fox Hunting stormed Downing Street? And what about the mob violence against paedophiles - I seem to remember you thinking direct action was wrong then.

    In a democracy there are ways and means for the people to change policy and I have no sympathy with those who use violence to subvert it, even when I may agree with their aims.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In a democracy there are ways and means for the people to change policy and I have no sympathy with those who use violence to subvert it, even when I may agree with their aims.
    But I thought you were a military man. Haven't you heard of war being a continuation of state policy by other means?

    ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    looks a bit like home sweet home :chin:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think Britain definitely has a lot to learn from other nations in this respect. Most countries wouldn't take some of the shit we have to put up with from our useless government. We have a government currently being run by the man who got our economy into the shitter whilst he was Chancellor. That's the political equivalent of having a family awareness campaign fronted by Josef Fritzl. We should take a leaf out of the book of the French - every time the government pisses you off, go out on the streets and protest in our millions until they're forced to back down.

    Governments should be absolutely terrified of their own citizens, not the other way round.
    Aladdin wrote: »
    country B: a citizen is unlawfully killed by policemen. There is public outrage, mass protests and riots. Not 48 hours later the policemen have been arrested and other heads start to roll.
    Wouldn't that have been interesting to behold back on Friday, July 22, 2005? The marksmen who shot him in cold blood would all have been locked up, Cressida Dick would be forced to answer questions about the operation, and Ian Blair would have been suspended from duty. Instead, we get a whitewash years later. Pathetic.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    But I thought you were a military man. Haven't you heard of war being a continuation of state policy by other means?

    ;)

    Er of course. However a) Clausewitz was talking bollocks with an extremely narrow 19th century intepretation b) he was talking state to state c) in a democratic state the citizen is not at war with his Government, even if they disagree.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Governments should be absolutely terrified of their own citizens, not the other way round. .

    Are you scared of the Government? I'm not, though i may disagree with them I don't worry they're going to lock me up or make me dissapear.

    But then I don't think it's a good thing for Governments to be terrified of the people either (which frankly is why places like the USSR/nazi germany shot and imprisoned their citizens).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Makes me feel kinda sad really. They must all be really angry and frustrated to carry on for that long. hopefully the government will stop and asking why this is happening instead of just trying to stop it.

    and yes it could definatly happen in the UK, i'd like to hope that someone would realise the problem and stop it before then but tbh i think our government/polcie are just as stubborn and abusive as the greek government/police!
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    What I think is that most people who do these things don't care about who was killed at all; they just found a good excuse to cause havoc and destruction.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    There are also rumours that many of the "hood-wearers" (as the savages are often referred to as) are actually cops, or paid by them to cause trouble.
    Someone I think of as a friend was the first one to tell me that and I'm sorry I didn't believe him at all now, because I've heard others say that a lot of them came out of a police van and I even saw a video of some talking to the police quietly, before an outbreak (holding steel pipes and everything).
    It feels like something sinister is going on...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    a29_17304265.jpg

    Fail.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whilst there are leigitmate reasons and ways for these people to protest, burning down buildings and attacking people isn't how you go about it.

    They've used the death of this boy as an excuse, these kids who are protesting against capitalism and big spending are the ones who have benefted from it for years.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well if you like cracking heads open and assaulting people with de facto immunity from prosecution, riot police is certainly the best choice.
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