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France rejects citizenship for burqa-wearing woman
BillieTheBot
Posts: 8,721 Bot
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/12/france.islamFrance has denied citizenship to a Moroccan woman who wears a burqa on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam is incompatible with basic French values such as equality of the sexes.
The case yesterday reopened the debate about Islam in France, and how the secular republic reconciles itself with the freedom of religion guaranteed by the French constitution.
The woman, known as Faiza M, is 32, married to a French national and lives east of Paris. She has lived in France since 2000, speaks good French and has three children born in France. Social services reports said she lived in "total submission" to her husband. Her application for French nationality was rejected in 2005 on the grounds of "insufficient assimilation" into France. She appealed, invoking the French constitutional right to religious freedom and saying that she had never sought to challenge the fundamental values of France. But last month the Council of State, France's highest administrative body, upheld the ruling.
"She has adopted a radical practice of her religion, incompatible with essential values of the French community, particularly the principle of equality of the sexes," it said.
Mmm... I don't know how I feel about this one. I despise burqas and organised religion, but respect the right of adults to wear what they want, tragic as I might find it. On the other hand the woman is not being forced to leave the country or anything but simply denied French citizenship.
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Having said that, I do sometimes wonder about the equality aspect, there are much more racial tensions in France than in Britain. Maybe it's because she was an arab muslim.
I dont know why people think its fine to discriminate against islamic women like that.
But french citizenship is a priveledge not a right, it should be afforded depending on your compatibility with the french system of beliefs etc. (If you don't like it, afterall, you dont have to live there)
Although I agree with you in a sense that I suspect some of this is because of racial / religious prejudices that are quite prominent in parts of France. If she was a white christian who believed in being a doting / slavish housewife would she have had any issues getting citizenship?
According to the criteria, then yes, she would have issues. I think this is just been blown up because she is a burqa-wearing Muslim.
She's not being refused permission to live in the country, is she? She's just had her application to become a French citizen rejected - as far as i could tell. If she's completely subservient to her husband then it's hardly likely she's had a choice in the matter of not integrating, and, to me at least, it's the abusive relationship between her and her husband that should be the real focus.
Yeah. And what's your problem with that? Wouldn't it be nice if the UK had the guts to do this as well?
Hmm, considering France has the same policy against all religion in social life, I doubt you'd support adopting the French model based on your position in debates about similar topics when Christianity is the religion in question.
haha. who the fuck would want to live in "the french community" anyway?
I agree, there is nothing wrong with wilful submission. Of course there's always going to be a question of what counts as wilful, but I think it's right that we must always assume that any adult is capable of making that decision.
And you'll understand the reason for that when you realise that God was created by men, rather than men being created by God. That's why he represents absolutely nothing more imaginative than the human range of emotions with the ability to control the weather. It's fundamentally evolved as a control mechanism. Tell your wife to do what you say, and she'll tell to fuck off. Bring a girl up to have faith in a particular religion that tells a wife that she must do what her husband says, and she'll have fewer objections. God was created by men, for men. But it's important to understand that he is merely a reflection of all of human morality and lack thereof in a particular time period.
Most've them didn't evolve independantly from each other though. People moved all over the world even as far back as biblical times. But there is still a huge gap between the middle-eastern religions, and the ones based most heavily in China, and that is reflected by some pretty monumental differences. Taoism teaches that there is no such thing as a god in any creative, interventionist or conscious sense. And yin and yang are fundamentally different from the Abrahamic concept of men and women, in that they are opposite, but perfectly equal. Indeed the whole concept of Taoism is about creating a balance between the two forces. Christianity, Judaism and Islam all clearly put the male party in the dominant role. But religions in general are similar, because they all reflect human desires (not to die, to believe that bastards get what's coming to them, to belong to a group, to believe they have a purpose, etc).
Well with all due respect, by any measure of a successful, peaceful society, the religious societies in the world are leagues behind the non-religious ones as a whole. Whether or not this is a result of a less devout population is up for debate, but there is no doubting a clear corrolation between the two. People always talk about the "moral breakdown" of society, but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest it exists. Quite the contrary in fact. People live longer, in better health, with higher levels of education, and in a recent poll, the happiest nation on earth turned out to be lovely secular Denmark; birthplace of the Muhammad cartoons that had so many people setting fire to their own countries. Yep, can't stand to look at themselves in the mirror.
Her.
I think you've a fundamental misunderstanding of equality. Equality doesn't demand equal treatment, - giving men the right to have abortions would be patently absurd, don't you think? - it demands equal consideration.
To right
The other criteria seem somewhat less reasonable though. Apparently you're not allowed to live as a recluse 'isolated from French society'. The French don't do misanthropy. I personally think people should be allowed to live as hermits if they want to. Also, apparently you're not allowed to be in 'total submission' to members of the opposite sex. Which isn't as vague as it sounds. I personally think people should be allowed to live in 'total submission' to members of the opposite sex if they choose to. I can't see why anybody would want to, or how anybody could possibly do so happily, in fact I suspect she doesn't, but at any rate they are not saying that she is being forced to be submissive. Remember that girl here in England who lets her boyfriend pull her about on a leash?
Anyhow, French state, French rules. *shrug*
what about disallowing catholics citizenship because they forbid women from preisthood?
You see my point?
I agree that the French have the right to do this, because it is a priveledge to become a French citizen and it is clear their idyllic philosophies aren't compatible with everyones way of life. But like I said, I don't think it is always fair and equal, there is a hell of a lot of prejudice in France.
I think with the divisions already existent between the people, the classes, the races, the government in France, this global recession might be all it takes to spark a new wave of race riots. And no French godfearing immigration officer wants to let more of 'their kind' in. The inequality in the French system is shocking.
A stereotypical French shrug by any chance?
well there's plenty of religious views that don't have this, not just islam so it's a null argument unless it's applied to catholics as well
Hmmmm .... I know this was just an example that you gave, but I think that if one applies to live in another country, then one should be expected to integrate into that society with some level of commitment. If they want to move to France (for example) to be a hermit, well, be a hermit in your OWN country. I don't believe that people should necessarily be automatically allowed into a society from which they will not benefit, or appreciate, the hard-fought ideals that has made the country what it is today. France stands for certain principles and if someone wants to be French but reject these principle (e.g. freedom of speech, equality of women etc), then maybe France is not the country for them.
I spoke to this woman http://www.janedoe.co.uk/ a few years ago, before she had a passport. I asked her that very question, and she could not answer definitively.
She was approaching 80 and seemed to have got along for those years just fine.