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Church of England in turmoil over gay wedding

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's moving the goalposts a bit isn't it? Previously you and others have said it was all about a gay couple clearly not intending to repent their "sin" by continuing their relationship and getting married.

    Nah. Whichever way you look at it, the point remains that the Church happily ignore some supposedly sinful acts while concentrating 100% of their bile on a certain other. It's hypocritical bullshit.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    That's moving the goalposts a bit isn't it? Previously you and others have said it was all about a gay couple clearly not intending to repent their "sin" by continuing their relationship and getting married.
    I don't think I said that. I acknowledge the fact that the couple are gay and they're in a relationship. I just don't see why the church should accept/endorse this relationship, because it is clearly a grave sin and contrary to the teachings of the scripture.
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Nah. Whichever way you look at it, the point remains that the Church happily ignore some supposedly sinful acts while concentrating 100% of their bile on a certain other. It's hypocritical bullshit.
    Yes the church has been hypocritical on many occasions, but in this instance the traditionalists who object to gay 'marriage' are not being hypocritical.

    They are following the scripture and therefore they're practising what they preach.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    As for why would any gay man want to marry in the church, I guess it's because they are Christian and believe in the message of love Jesus gave, rather than in the disgusting views in the OT promoting sexism, homophobia, racism, violence, murder, slavery and hatred.
    Didn't Jesus affirm a lot of the teachings of the OT (including the bits which denounce homosexuality)?

    Sorry my knowledge of Christianity is limited. Ask me about Islam though and I'll have a field day. :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sanitize wrote: »
    I don't think I said that. I acknowledge the fact that the couple are gay and they're in a relationship. I just don't see why the church should accept/endorse this relationship, because it is clearly a grave sin and contrary to the teachings of the scripture.

    Yes the church has been hypocritical on many occasions, but in this instance the traditionalists who object to gay 'marriage' are not being hypocritical.

    They are following the scripture and therefore they're practising what they preach.
    But they are not are they? Under the Bible they are under obligation to put their neighbour to death if they work on the Sabbath.

    Now I don't believe for a minute (and nor would anyone else) that no clergyman in modern history has ever become aware of someone else working on the Sabbath. In fact, you can bet your life they all know numerous people who do. So why don't they put them to death, or even ask for them to be put to death by somebody else?

    Believe me sanitize, they're hypocrite bigots happy to ignore countless of 'sins' while concentrating on the evil gays. There is nothing consistent about them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    But they are not are they? Under the Bible they are under obligation to put their neighbour to death if they work on the Sabbath.

    Not really. While Jesus didn't retract the old testament law, and in some senses even went further, he also stressed that it was not for one person to punish another for committing such sins in the way that the old testament preaches, with statements such as, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Although there are still plenty of other things that the church is hypocritical on.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not really. While Jesus didn't retract the old testament law, and in some senses even went further, he also stressed that it was not for one person to punish another for committing such sins in the way that the old testament preaches, with statements such as, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Although there are still plenty of other things that the church is hypocritical on.
    Maybe so, but do we ever hear of CoE clergy constantly speaking against people who work on the Sabbath? Do we hear them condemn their actions? Do we see those who commit such temerity being banned from being married in the church?

    The pick-and-choose dogma is there for all to see. It's a load of bigoted bollocks, and quite simply the Church wouldn't have a leg to stand on even if it was acceptable to discriminate against people's sexual orientation because it says so in their holy book, since it continuously and consistently chooses to ignore hundreds of other types of sins and sinners.

    Indeed, it is happy to welcome them every week and for them to fully participate in its rituals and ceremonies without them having to repent or promise to change their ways. But those evil gayers, they're not welcome unless they're "cured"...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I find it hard to get worked up about stuff like this. It's just religious people deciding how they want to run their church. Just continue fighting for none of the rest of us to have to pay for any of it, and they'll be out of sight, out of mind.

    But if they want my theological opinion (I'm sure they don't), then I have to side with the homophobes. It's quite clear in the scripture. A practicing gay person would be a sinner. Now obviously in Christianity, everyone struggles with sin, but that's quite different from actually accepting it. But Jesus goes even further. On the subject of adultery, for example, he states that you have already sinned if you have thought about committing it. It's not merely enough to follow the Jewish law, you've got to quell your mere desire to break it. Since he was talking about the Jewish law in general and giving examples, I assume that I'm permitted to take this concept as an example to the remainder of the teachings. And so in that context, imo a person who openly lusts after a member of the same sex would be convicting themselves of these thought-crimes in the Christian faith. So a homosexual wedding between two clergymen would be a pretty cut and dry issue to me if I wanted to follow Christianity. But having said that, when was the last time any churches followed what the bible says?

    Good post, I agree with that.

    It's only fair that homosexual couples can enjoy the same legal status as married heterosexual couples, something which they can do already, so to force Churches into conducting homosexual marriages seems to me as more spite against Christianity than anything else. It's something to be expected though, considering the number of barely reformed Trotskyites within New Labour.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'd actually be happy to ignore the issue since it's their church and rules (even though it is obvious to anyone they pick and choose which rules to observe), but only if they returned the courtesy and stopped using all their might and political power to prevent full and proper civil ceremony gay marriage from becoming a reality.

    For as long as they continue to do everything in their power to interfere with the rights of others, including those who don't subscribe to their beliefs, they should expect the same treatment.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sanitize wrote: »
    Didn\'t Jesus affirm a lot of the teachings of the OT (including the bits which denounce homosexuality)?

    Jesus (which was not his name) affirmed ALL the LAWS of the scriptures.

    Matthew 5 : 17 18
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well one would get you fired and arrested, so the punishment would be greater. But point to me the verses in the bible that mention different degrees of sin. Until you can do that, surely the verses that I've pointed to are enough to justify the interpretation that all sins are equal in the eyes of God according to Jesus? Incidentally, this is particular to Christianity, because the old testament does specify different punishments for different crimes (though it does AFAIK explicitly rank them in any way). The Old Testament doesn't have everlasting hell. Jesus was the one that says that it's an all or nothing thing (and that even think about it is enough that you must ask God's forgiveness to avoid hell).

    try Matthew 23:23 (or the whole chapter for context!
    more important translates better as weightier. One way of viewing can be found here.
    Jesus broke the law on a number of occasions - for example he worked on the Sabbath, yet according to the bible "in him was found no sin"

    one could therefore say that doing one of the more weightier things of the law - such as promoting justice for the dispossessed when you come across, it could override another part of the law that says you should work on a particular day. Trying to workout which was right or wrong is the wrong questions - its like trying to workout how heavy the colour blue is :)

    So if the church focused on the more important things then all the other stuff becomes (well should become) a non-issue
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    hobbs wrote: »
    Jesus broke the law on a number of occasions - for example he worked on the Sabbath, yet according to the bible \"in him was found no sin\"

    When did Jesus work on the Sabbath ?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    here is as good as any place to start.

    picked grains of corn, healed people, taught - all were classed as work by the rulers of the day
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    hobbs wrote: »
    [URL=\"http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/sabbath3.htm\"]here[/URL] is as good as any place to start.

    picked grains of corn, healed people, taught - all were classed as work by the rulers of the day

    The rulers of the day distorting the law to fit their perception of right and wrong. I guess some things never change.

    That reminds me of Sunday trading laws ( especially with regards to Easter Sunday). Sunday is not the Sabbath day and Easter is a pagan festival. Two distortions for the price of one.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The rulers of the day distorting the law to fit their perception of right and wrong. I guess some things never change.

    That reminds me of Sunday trading laws ( especially with regards to Easter Sunday). Sunday is not the Sabbath day and Easter is a pagan festival. Two distortions for the price of one.

    that's very true, but verses in Exodus (20:11, 31:14-15 = the equivalent in Leviticus and Deuteronomy) state that one shouldn't work on the Sabbath. So as you say, someone somewhere has to define what work is and this is a subjective process. The same could be said for how the Bible is used to define (or proclaim right or wrong) on the whole gay wedding business.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When people say "clearly the scripture is against homosexuality" I wonder if they are referring to the scriptures as they were written, or as they were modified and translated.

    Actually, I don't wonder, but those that make the claim should.
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