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Arrogance

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I always thought arrogance meant having an unduly high opinion of yourself, thinking you're better than you are, which is why I often disputed the way people used it in describing people who actually are as good as they say/think! (Whether they're referring to their intellect, skills/talents eg music or sport, successfulness, general personality etc).

However, having touched upon this yday and read about, in fact it seems that arrogance simply means thinking you're better than other people, you see yourselves as 'above' inferiors. Well, I think I'm "better" than most (but not all) people, based on the characteristics I find important in people.

But, surely, most people must think similarly? As in, nearly everyone must have things they find attractive or not in people - if they're a nice / honest person, a great personality, ambitious, successful or whatever. Now, I think very few people would honestly see everyone as equal to one another, nobody better or worse than anyone else, given they have such preferences in people. So doesn't that mean nearly everyone is, to a greater or lesser degree, either arrogant, or not, in which case they may be lacking confidence and self-esteem which is never good.

I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking you're better than most other people provided a) you don't say it out loud so you get a bad rep, b) you don't have delusions of grandeur and think you're better than you actually are. Its a great, healthy, positive mindset to have a dose of this, surely as opposed to thinking you're inferior to others. Thoughts?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it'd be better not to start this debate up again, personally.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Cazzoo wrote: »
    I think it'd be better not to start this debate up again, personally.
    Well its a topic that's been on my mind so I'd like to know what peoples thoughts are? And if I need to try and change my mindset which I feel has been positive and healthy for me.

    I'm just watching Sky News, a teenager died in the Army, his mum said he joined a certain troop because he wanted to be the best, the very best. Doesn't the Army's slogan "Be the Best" imply arrogance if you think you're the "best" because of having a noble job and are physically fit?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Arrogance is about how other people percieve you and your manner - not how you think about yourself.

    Whilst you should be given the benefit of the doubt and this thread should probably stay open for now, starting a thread on the same issues that caused so much disbelief and anger as the one last night - and starting with 'it's alright to think you are better than most people' really just rings of trolling. But it is understandble that you'd want to explore the problems you present in your posts.

    The thread will be moved to relationships since it's about your relationship with other people and we'll have to see from your responses how genuine it turns out to be.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    tinkler wrote: »
    I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking you're better than most other people provided a) you don't say it out loud so you get a bad rep, b) you don't have delusions of grandeur and think you're better than you actually are.

    I'm curious, you write those two things when clearly you're guilty of both a and b.

    There's quite a lot of people on these boards that have aced something important to them and makes them feel proud. I've done it myself and I'm now enjoying the benefits. I'm self confident, doing things in my life I feel are important and am happy with my share in life and as such, I simply don't understand why you're so obsessed of boasting about how you think you're better than "most". Pretentious comes to mind.

    There is a difference between being proud of what you've achieved, which you may deserve to be, and then translating it as if you're better than everybody else because of it. I personally think I'm good at what I do, but I know there are others better at it and that in other areas there are people better at something entirely different. It's impossible for me to say that because I've got a nicely paying job that I'm better than my friend who may not be earning as much.

    I find it hard to understand why a supposedly intelligent bloke comes to this place obsessed with how you're so hot at the expense of others. Especially on a forum aimed at young people, many of whom haven't even started university so who knows where they'll end up later in life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think you can value aspects in other people that you wouldn't want for yourself. I, for instance, quite like and admire people who are into stuff like animal rights and stuff, even though it's certainly not something I give two hoots about myself, I like the courage in their convictions even though those convictions aren't ones I persoanlly value. Therefore I find it an easy concept to acknowledge that I may be 'better' than some people in some respects but not think I am overall 'better' than them. In a career for example, you might think you have a 'better' job than someone else because you earn more money whilst they might think they have a better job because they help little orphan chicks survive ro soemthing. each is better to the other but neither is really better overall.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So Tinkler, if I rid yer ma and bragged about it to everyone that I've rid yer ma and you haven't rid mine. Would you be a happy bunny? :chin:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    May also be worth considering whether or not a person who is really confident would actually need to compare themselves to other people constantly?

    After all if a lack of self-esteem could be seen in a person who compares themselves to other people and finds themselves lacking - then couldn't arrogance be the outward sign of a person who feels the damaging need to compare themselves to other people and continually concludes they are better than them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh great, started again?

    popcorn.gif
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V - sorry, but your accusations of what constitutes "trolling" are utterly ridiculous. First you accused me of trolling in a thread where I asked if people felt guilty when they were lazy and were not achieving anything, such as spending ample time on message boards (just mindlessly chatting banter rather than seeking advice / learning stuff, like I am now). Now you accuse me of trolling because I want answers to questions you locked the thread on yesterday. It should be obvious from my language and writing style that I'm not remotely trollish; you are making me feel like an outcast for having views which do not perfectly conform / fit in with what is considered "normal". Its not trollish to have a different point of view, and my opinions certainly aren't anything outrageously extremist considering the demographics of the UK.

    Jaloux - how I'm like in real life is very different to here where I'm expressing inner feelings I wouldn't say in public. Definitely not deemed "arrogant" in person, pretty quiet and sometimes remarked to be modest in fact!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont think you can really decide weither you yourself are arrogant. Its all about what other people think of you. Yes you can be better than other people, you can know your better and they can know your better. That is not necessarily arrogance. I would say arrogance is a person that will try to show and act in a way that makes them seem better than everyone else (even if they are or not) to the extent that other people notice this effort, which in turn may make them feel insulted or uncomfortable with that person. It indeed can be a an off putting attribute, especialy if it is unjustified.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    May also be worth considering whether or not a person who is really confident would actually need to compare themselves to other people constantly?

    After all if a lack of self-esteem could be seen in a person who compares themselves to other people and finds themselves lacking - then couldn't arrogance be the outward sign of a person who feels the damaging need to compare themselves to other people and continually concludes they are better than them.
    I read about this a lot and really don't buy it. Yes, I constantly compare myself to other people. No, I'm not lacking self-esteem whatsoever - I'd know if I did. Its natural for people to compare themselves with their peer group and doesn't necessarily mean they're lacking confidence / self-esteem. Maybe they just want to see how other people go about things and if there's alternative ways to be successful. Maybe they want to ensure they're staying ahead of the game and not missing out on new approaches to things. I dunno, just I know plenty of truly "confident" people who compare themselves a lot regardless. One of Facebook's most popular apps is called "Compare People" which has millions of users signed up - plenty have no self-esteem probs and are just curious how they rank/fare.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And as I said, we're more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Asking people if they were lazy and wasting their time for posting on this message board and posting threads from other message boards to laugh at are, however, more than enough to genuinely cause concern - something other users have expressed.

    But as I also said, this thread is a perfect opportunity to demonstrate you are interesting in exploring the way people percieve you and your posts and to demonstrate that those perceptions are wrong - so I'd suggest staying on that topic, rather than using it to complain about behaviour you've already been warned about. If you want to do that, please do it through private messages.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    J wrote: »
    It's identity in difference isn't it. Some people are good at some things, whilst others are good at others.
    And many are good at everything - beautiful, physically fit and strong, intelligent, emotive, friendly, social, helpful, successful, etc..

    Interesting the people who say you can't decide if you're arrogant or not that's up to others to decide. That's not what a dictionary definition says. And that would mean that whilst I think I'm "better" than many, I'm not arrogant as in real life (not online) I'm not perceived to be arrogant.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    tinkler wrote: »
    And that would mean that whilst I think I'm "better" than many, I'm not arrogant as in real life (not online) I'm not perceived to be arrogant.

    do you recognise that you are only 'better' than others according to your ownscoring system though?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    do you recognise that you are only 'better' than others according to your ownscoring system though?
    Of course, absolutely. As I said in the OP everyone has different criteria they find important. I'm sure many from my school who dropped out age 16 will see me as inferior to them as I'm a computer geek (computer science degree) = loser. That said, my "scoring system" seems very much in line with what a lot of young professionals I meet in London admire when meeting people - in a nutshell social skills, looks, career/ambition and intellect. Sort of in that order.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    tinkler wrote: »
    That said, my "scoring system" seems very much in line with what a lot of young professionals I meet in London admire when meeting people - in a nutshell social skills, looks, career/ambition and intellect. Sort of in that order.

    This all seems very familiar. :chin:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    This all seems very familiar. :chin:
    You missed time management. :D

    I often give an impression of confidence to others, however I think this is built (or at least, was originally built) on a base of a lack of confidence. If I ever come across as arrogant, it's more in a self-mocking way.

    It's quite easy to portray whatever image you like to people, especially over a place as impersonal as the internet. I think there is truth in what Tinkler said about not necessarily being arrogant in real life, but projecting that ideal persona elsewhere (in your head, or on the net).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    People care too much what others think. Depending on whom you speak to on this board, you'll get various portraits of my personality. If you speak to one of my friends, you would hopefully get a picture of a man who is compassionate, generous and always has time for others. If you speak to someone who openly dislikes me, (and there's quite a lot of them) you'll get an image of a man who's vain, arrogant, rude, selfish, greedy and temperamental. I've been told that I portray myself extremely badly on the Internet, it's been said that I get up people's backs. Indeed, one member whom I regard with particular contempt has openly called me a liar and a fantasist.

    But do I care? Not in the slightest. Let's face it - most people here will never meet me. Indeed, I've stated openly that I have no wish to meet them myself. They can think whatever they like, but they can be assured that their opinions, in my eyes, count for absolutely nothing. Will such blunt words from me now "get up people's backs"? Almost certainly. But I simply couldn't care less.

    I have exactly the same attitude in real life. If you are fine with me, I'll be fine with you. If, on the other hand, you're a total dickhead towards me, you'll get it all thrown back at you. As far as I'm concerned, being liked is simply a bonus. If you like me, that's good to know. If you don't, fuck you - you're not worth knowing anyway. I do the same thing at work in the arcade when dealing with customers. If you're nice to me when telling me you've got some problems, I'll bend over backwards to help you. If you're shouting and being abusive, I'll tell you to get lost.

    Take earlier tonight, for example. We have a machine in the arcade called The Big One. Basically, it's a machine full of large teddies which you have to win using the claw. Sometimes it picks up, sometimes it doesn't. Around 7pm, a woman won two teddies on this machine. I opened the door to take them out for her. After closing it, a man came up to me asking "is that machine working tonight?". My response - "well, she's just won two teddies on it, so it must be". He went on to play. 20 minutes later, he storms up to me and starts giving me a load of abuse about how he can't win on the machine. He said "This is a fucking outrage. Your fucking machine isn't giving me a fucking teddy. It's [the claw] getting to the top and letting go of it. Get in that machine and give me a fucking teddy!". I promptly told him to bugger off - "You think you can swear at me like that and get a free teddy? I owe you nothing - you can get lost, for all I care." He insisted on seeing my manager - apparently, I had an "attitude problem". He backed me up 100% of the way, and rightly so - why the hell should we help a man who's being arrogant and abusive?

    My point is, you generally shouldn't care what others think of you. However, it occasionally pays to give the impression you do care...
  • **helen****helen** Deactivated Posts: 9,235 Supreme Poster
    tinkler wrote: »
    seeking advice / learning stuff, like I am now

    *sigh* Tinkler, I really fail to see what you're learning here because if you really want to learn from people on this forum then you really need to think harder about the way you phrase your postings.

    I agree, all of us at some point may well catch ourselves thinking - "I'm glad I'm not that person because I much prefer my life." or "Thank goodness I didn't turn out like them." but that's obvious isn't it. It's unlikely that anyone would deny that fact.

    As for thinking you're better than most, in my opinion that's ill-informed, but regardless of that, my question would be - what would be the value in being 'better' than most anyway? (see J's post for insight into this) As soon as you make statements like this you're going to get people's backs up and I would suggest thinking less about the word 'arrogant' and more about the word 'humility' because only then will you be in a position to learn from others. You keep telling us that you're not arrogant offline, so I'm confused as to why you seem to believe that openess about it online would gauge a different reaction or be helpful in any way.

    J and Katralla make some excellent points relating to this, but I can totally understand why others are struggling to engage based on the way the topic is presented. As Jim says, if you want to chat about this then please PM one of us.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Tinkler, are you Ricardo R in disguise? :chin:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    StupidGirl wrote: »
    Tinkler, are you Ricardo R in disguise? :chin:

    yeah, or one of those countless others...needtovent, jomery etcc...i refuse to believe there are that many people with such a ridiculous view of everything, hopefully its just one person, who cant leave the place alone.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yeah, or one of those countless others...needtovent, jomery etcc...i refuse to believe there are that many people with such a ridiculous view of everything, hopefully its just one person, who cant leave the place alone.
    I don't think it's Jomery. Jomery couldn't get laid, remember :p.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The rest worked in investment banking (or similar). This guy is in the technology sector.
    i refuse to believe there are that many people with such a ridiculous view of everything

    This person would make it four people with these views. Hardly a majority now, is it? Out of 6 billion? Take it easy people.

    Go into the City and you will meet a lot of people with similar views. In the long run, who cares?
  • **helen****helen** Deactivated Posts: 9,235 Supreme Poster
    g_angel wrote: »
    The rest worked in investment banking (or similar). This guy is in the technology sector.



    This person would make it four people with these views. Hardly a majority now, is it? Out of 6 billion? Take it easy people.

    Go into the City and you will meet a lot of people with similar views. In the long run, who cares?

    :yes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Stargalaxy - quality post. Like you, I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about me on this site as its completely irrelevant. You don't know who I am nor will you. However, I find what people think of me in the "real world" extremely important. If I ever become successful I wouldn't want people telling the papers I'm a cocky arrogant twat. At Imperial there was student message boards where people said nice things about me, if thered been bad stuff it would be bad were a client, employer, date ever to Google me. Which happens.

    No, I am new to this site, but as g_angel says I can't believe I'm being demonised as some kind of extremist. Go hang out with young professionals in London and you'll see plenty with identical views to me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm going to say the same thing to you as I believe has been said to stargalaxy before now:

    If you don't like us, and you don't care what we think, if you really do think we are lazy because we don't go out every single night to wherever (ever stopped to think that some people just don't like doing things like that?), then why the hell are you still here?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    tinkler wrote: »
    Of course, absolutely. As I said in the OP everyone has different criteria they find important. I'm sure many from my school who dropped out age 16 will see me as inferior to them as I'm a computer geek (computer science degree) = loser. That said, my "scoring system" seems very much in line with what a lot of young professionals I meet in London admire when meeting people - in a nutshell social skills, looks, career/ambition and intellect. Sort of in that order.

    It kind of sounds like you want high fives for being a "young professional in London". I'm sure it works for you, a continuous revenge of the nerds on those dropouts you mention. But your criteria have become very strange; and they actually equate quite depressingly with the sort of things I'd bet the dull brigade at your school seemed to value when they were teens. The qualifier "in that order" - you regard "social skills" as the most important quality in a human being? Screw those who can't present themselves quite as smoothly as a salesman?

    "Looks" - something largely uncontrollable, not in any way a quality. Everyone can judge "ambition" differently; who's to say that aspiring to run a farm or work in a bookshop is any more or less admirable or impressive than wanting a highly paid job in London? If you talk to people whose jobs might typically be regarded as 'unimpressive', you often find that they're not defined by those social roles. They have other stuff going on, and besides, isn't it refreshing, adults who don't want to conquer their remote corner of the world?

    "Intellect" is even more tricky. Mensa members? People who play chess? Fellow computer science graduates? Is it based on test scores, numbers, language, humour, empathy, musical ability, philosophy, sports, crossword puzzles, compassion, etc.? There's so many hundreds of attributes that go into making people, and intellect is such a po-faced word. We don't go around with tags that display our supposed IQs or list our achievements on t-shirts: it's done by feel, and while you may get a distinct feeling that someone is ignorant or ill-informed, it's very rare, at least for me, that after talking to a great person you come away beaming about their "intellect". It's more likely to be the jokes they make, their subject matter, their take on the world. All that stuff is too cool and precious to be bundled into a stern box like intellect.

    In short, your criteria are fatally flawed and I reject your arrogance on moral grounds.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Arrogance
    exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner

    Tinkler, I just found this definition of arrogance on the internet. I've highlighted the bits that apply to you. I think that pretty much sums up every post you've made on here tbh.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    tinkler wrote: »
    Stargalaxy - quality post. Like you, I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about me on this site as its completely irrelevant. You don't know who I am nor will you. However, I find what people think of me in the "real world" extremely important. If I ever become successful I wouldn't want people telling the papers I'm a cocky arrogant twat. At Imperial there was student message boards where people said nice things about me, if thered been bad stuff it would be bad were a client, employer, date ever to Google me. Which happens.

    No, I am new to this site, but as g_angel says I can't believe I'm being demonised as some kind of extremist. Go hang out with young professionals in London and you'll see plenty with identical views to me.

    Well, the problem about being very successful (like a director of a huge corporation) is that you need to handle that lots of people don't like you. Comes with the job, your "enemies" will use every opportunity to make you look bad in such jobs.

    To believe that everyone will like you, even in high positions is doomed to fail. Rather than being afraid of everyone thinks of you, one needs to learn how to tackle personal attacks instead.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's true that confidence is sometimes misappropriated as arrogance by jealous people. But there is an obvious difference between the two. Confident people don't compare themselves to other people, because confidence is about using your own potential to so as well as you can. Confident people don't have to prove themselves to other people, except the people who are in control of their future opportunities. Confident people accept that practically everyone in the world is better than them at something, and will be able to colloborate with them or learn something from them on at least one subject. The best scientist in any field will always refer you to someone else the second the conversation goes away from their particular area of expertise. They will speak with confidence on their chosen subject, because the chances are that they know more than anyone else about it. But I doubt any of them use that as a reason to declare themselves "generally better" than other people.

    You see arrogant people in football sometimes, and they're never successful until they get rid of it, because like most things, it's a team game. Arrogant players fall out with managers, teammates and clubs, think they know best, don't improve very quickly because they believe thier own hype. The ones who are successful are the ones who know that all they have is potential, and there are still a hell of a lot to learn off people who know a lot more about everything than them. The people who achieve aren't the people who focus on past achievements or compare themselves to other people. The more you know, the more there is to learn. So arrogance is never a good quality.

    Also, just a side note, but I read a study once that the more incompetent a person is, the more likely they are to overestimate their own ability, whereas the most competent people are more likely to underestimate it. So think about that before you start spouting off about how much better than everyone else you are.
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