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Michael Portillo - Death Penalty

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    But why should anyone be put to death at all? What purpose could that possibly serve? :confused:

    Certainly not a deterant factor, its just about revenge - feeding a nasty side of human nature really.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    But why should anyone be put to death at all? What purpose could that possibly serve? :confused:
    Well, what else is there to do with the sort of pond life that commit the most appalling of crimes? Take Ian Huntley, for instance. According to press reports, he's attempted to kill himself at least three times since he went into prison. Yet for some reason, the prison staff stop him every time. Why don't they just let him get on with it? Why should the taxpayer have to pay for the upkeep of evil men such as Huntley?

    However, I know that argument won't wash with you, so let's try a different tack. Since you wouldn't give him the death penalty, what would you do? At the very least, he must never be released. Would you agree?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Well, what else is there to do with the sort of pond life that commit the most appalling of crimes? Take Ian Huntley, for instance. According to press reports, he's attempted to kill himself at least three times since he went into prison. Yet for some reason, the prison staff stop him every time. Why don't they just let him get on with it? Why should the taxpayer have to pay for the upkeep of evil men such as Huntley?

    However, I know that argument won't wash with you, so let's try a different tack. Since you wouldn't give him the death penalty, what would you do? At the very least, he must never be released. Would you agree?

    Feel free to call me a wolly liberal, but I dont think anyone is beyond redemption, beyond all hope of change so I would give him a very long sentance but one with the possible hope of him changing and being released at some point in the future. Though of course that does depend on the persons age, if a 65 year old committed 15 murders then they probably would stay in jail for the rest of their life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Well, what else is there to do with the sort of pond life that commit the most appalling of crimes? Take Ian Huntley, for instance. According to press reports, he's attempted to kill himself at least three times since he went into prison. Yet for some reason, the prison staff stop him every time. Why don't they just let him get on with it? Why should the taxpayer have to pay for the upkeep of evil men such as Huntley?

    However, I know that argument won't wash with you, so let's try a different tack. Since you wouldn't give him the death penalty, what would you do? At the very least, he must never be released. Would you agree?
    Oh absolutely. He can rot in jail until the day he dies. I have no problem with certain prisoners being in prison for life without parole.

    But purposedly ending another human being's life is crossing a certain bonduary. It's bad enough some people kill each other. But nothing is gained by the state killing those who have killed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Oh absolutely. He can rot in jail until the day he dies. I have no problem with certain prisoners being in prison for life without parole. But purposedly ending another human being's life is crossing a certain bonduary. It's bad enough some people kill each other. But nothing is gained by the state killing those who have killed.

    I admit that mine is something of a minority view on this. I think the reason that people sometimes call for the return of the death penalty is when they see the hash that politicians and judges have made of the judges system. We have a Home Secretary who announces a new initiative every five minutes, and a Home Office which seems to be permanently mired in scandal. We've got politicians who have flatly refused to commission the building of new jails, meaning that certain criminals are being let out early, possibly to commit more crimes. These same politicians are also the ones creating yet more and more "crimes" which carry custodial sentences, instead of actually looking at why Britain imprisons so many people.

    Only this week, we saw the case of three teenagers killing Garry Newlove. One of them had been released on bail just hours beforehand. Why the fuck had he been let out? His widow, Helen, gives a speech in which she condemns the killers and this society which we're in, and what's the response? Do we see Gordon Brown taking action? No. We just get Jacqui Smith giving out insincere platitudes that she "understands". No you don't, Jacqui. You can't even pay the police properly, there isn't a hope of you being able to "understand" anything.

    When we have to put up with this kind of bollocks, can you blame people for looking at other deterrents?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Oh absolutely. He can rot in jail until the day he dies. I have no problem with certain prisoners being in prison for life without parole.

    But purposedly ending another human being's life is crossing a certain bonduary. It's bad enough some people kill each other. But nothing is gained by the state killing those who have killed.

    :yes:

    I don't believe that everyone can be redeemed - some people commit crimes so evil and hideous redemption is not possible. But if a prisoner is in the states power, it's morally unacceptable to kill them, when there is no reason to do so.

    I have no problem with an armed robber being shot as he runs from a bank brandishing a sawn-off. If he's lying in handcuffs on the ground and a peeler takes out a pistol and double-taps him, that's a wrong.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    The only thing we should be learning from the US is that harsh prison terms and treating prisoners like shite doesnt do any good in the long run.

    Did you watch Louis Theroux's documentary on Sunday? He interviewed a bloke who was in prison for 500 years plus 11 life sentences for robbery and torturing his victims. And then he revealed that he spent almost his entire life from the age of 10 in the American prison system. I may be making a bit of a leap here, but I don't think it's far off the mark to say that the American system creates monsters, rather than containing them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    J wrote: »
    How many murders are there in the small tribes of Africa? None I would imagine.

    You would imagine wrongly. In tribal societies 5% of the population is killed per year through fighting. People think that the 20th century was a violent century, with the 500 million people killed in wars. But take the 5% per year death rates of pre-civilisation tribes and apply it to the 20th century population as a whole, and the figure would've been more like 2 billion. 4 times the amount of Stalin, Hitler, Mao and the rest of them combined. The idea that scientific and political progress has lead to a less moral society couldn't be further from the truth.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    J wrote: »
    But I would say fighting in a tribal sense is different to murders and rapes and the lilke.

    Given what the tribes in Africa do to each other's women and children, I'd say you imagine wrongly.

    Mass genocide- mass rape and mass murder- is common.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Did you watch Louis Theroux's documentary on Sunday? He interviewed a bloke who was in prison for 500 years plus 11 life sentences for robbery and torturing his victims. And then he revealed that he spent almost his entire life from the age of 10 in the American prison system. I may be making a bit of a leap here, but I don't think it's far off the mark to say that the American system creates monsters, rather than containing them.

    Exactly, all US prisons are in large part is a short term holding pen for societies dross.

    SG; I know the idea that the death penalty is a deterant makes sense to people like us but it hasnt been proven to have any effect at all. Murderers either do it in a fit of passion or believe that they wont get caught so they dont take into account prison or whether there is the death penalty.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i watched the program on tv and found it quite interesting, the nitrogen gas stuff looked like it could be fun! also what budda said, a hefty dose of benzos wouldnt be a bad way to go

    i cant quite decide whether or not i think its justified to take another humans life .. i wouldn't be too fussed if the likes of huntly got a bullet in the head but i reckon he should just be left to rot ... but if it was my kids he had murderded it would be a different story, and id be all for it ..
    Kermit wrote: »
    2. The criminal justice system is far from infaillible- just ask the Birmingham Six. Whilst they lost most of their life because of bent coppers, at least they didn't lose all of it.

    or the guildford four .. even more worryingly in both cases the judges said they regretted they couldnt have the 'criminals' put to death

    id say there are some who do deserve it, but only if its 100% proved that they had commited the crimes
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    z- wrote: »
    i watched the program on tv and found it quite interesting, the nitrogen gas stuff looked like it could be fun! also what budda said, a hefty dose of benzos wouldnt be a bad way to go

    i cant quite decide whether or not i think its justified to take another humans life .. i wouldn't be too fussed if the likes of huntly got a bullet in the head but i reckon he should just be left to rot ... but if it was my kids he had murderded it would be a different story, and id be all for it ..



    or the guildford four .. even more worryingly in both cases the judges said they regretted they couldnt have the 'criminals' put to death

    id say there are some who do deserve it, but only if its 100% proved that they had commited the crimes

    so it's not right to kill, unless it is the state, the fact that lifers in italy petitioned to be executed and mass killers like haroldshipman took his own life shows that its better to lock them up for life
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I am just catching up with this programme on BBC iPlayer.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think that people who are pro death penalty need to look at the bigger picture. The death penalty is not going to control or deter crime what so ever. It's the harshest form of punishment, as anyone with a conscience will agree.
    Also, by using the death penalty as a form of punishment, aren't we placing a label on crimes that we as a society deem to be not worthy of say a life sentence maybe? & is certainly doesn't save the government any money by getting rid of these criminals once and for all as many reports have shown.
    Plus, I don't understand how we can kill the criminals in question when they have committed an offence worthy of a death penalty and it is alright?! Nobody can play God, & anyone administering for e.g. a lethal injection to someone who has committed a crime, surely must find it hard knowing that they've just killed somebody themselves.
    I'm sure that alot of people within society would be alot happier if the criminals who are apparently worthy of death were given maybe life inprisonment with no parole. That way, the human rights issue is covered and victims do not have to worry about the day their attackers get released from prison.
    I dont know what else to say, but thats my opinion. I think that this is an issue which will will always be up in the air as too many people have their own opinion which they think is right.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When the death penalty was repealed in the UK, its replacement was life imprisonment.

    As you can tell with Messrs Venables and Thompson. And Mr Hoare the rapist. Oh, wait a minute, I get to pay millions to keep scum like that safe and cosy in society whilst the victims get fuck all.

    The only thing making me be against the death penalty is the fact that the justice system is not infallible. If there was a way of being 100% certain that someone did something like rape or murder then I'd have no problems with making the fuckers burn.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    When the death penalty was repealed in the UK, its replacement was life imprisonment.

    As you can tell with Messrs Venables and Thompson. And Mr Hoare the rapist. Oh, wait a minute, I get to pay millions to keep scum like that safe and cosy in society whilst the victims get fuck all.

    The only thing making me be against the death penalty is the fact that the justice system is not infallible. If there was a way of being 100% certain that someone did something like rape or murder then I'd have no problems with making the fuckers burn.

    How quaint. :rolleyes:
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