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Britain joined plot to overthrow Italian government if Communists won

Britain plotted to support a coup d?état in Rome in 1976 because of grave fears that the Italian Communist Party would win the election and form a government, according to declassified documents.

The papers, uncovered by an Italian researcher at the National Archives at Kew, reveal a flurry of anxious correspondence between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and its diplomats, as well as with Henry Kissinger, the US Secretary of State, European officials in Brussels and even the Vatican in the months before the election.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3182451.ece

Nice to see how much the West really values and respects democracy isn't it? Though that wouldn't hardly be news to the citizens of Chile...

Reminds me of a joke in Private Eye a while back. It had the headline "Palestinian Election Shock" and underneath a picture of Bush saying "Democracy doesn't mean you can vote for just anyone you want!"

Funny how they were prepared to overthrow the democratically elected government of one country but never considered doing the same to the Nazi-supporting, mass-murdering fascist scumbag who tyranised a nearby country few hundred miles to the south-west for 40 years.

Fucking pathetic.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not really a surprise... it was in the midst of the Cold War. If the Communists won it's certain that military/business interests would have launched a coup and in that context it's no surprise that such an attempt would have had some support from the West.

    Historical hypothetical what ifs of govts/intelligence services aren't really much use... I'd imagine various people would be plotting if there somehow appeared to be some danger of a European country electing some unstable fruitcake who believed in flying pigs...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Communism was the enemy, no surprises we'd have plotted to overthrow a communist government in the heart of Western Europe.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not really a surprise... it was in the midst of the Cold War. If the Communists won it's certain that military/business interests would have launched a coup and in that context it's no surprise that such an attempt would have had some support from the West.

    Historical hypothetical what ifs of govts/intelligence services aren't really much use... I'd imagine various people would be plotting if there somehow appeared to be some danger of a European country electing some unstable fruitcake who believed in flying pigs...
    Then again the Italian Communist party was widely acknowledged to be fairly moderate in comparison to the Soviet Union. Nor that it should have mattered either way, since it would have been the decision of the people of Italy to elect them.

    The hypocrisy of Western governments is beyond description. And then we wonder why all those "oppressed" nations in the Middle East and elsewhere are not jumping at the idea of embracing our precious vision of democracy.

    You could also say that their obsession with and fear of communism was as disproportionate as it is laughable.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    The hypocrisy of Western governments is beyond description. And then we wonder why all those "oppressed" nations in the Middle East and elsewhere are not jumping at the idea of embracing our precious vision of democracy.

    In the 1970s Western governments were hardly vocal champions of democracy in the Middle East...

    Do you not think there are oppressed nations in the Middle East? Free speech is severely restricted throughout the Middle East; in Saudi Arabia, in Iran, in Syria there is no free press, no freedom of movement, no freedom of association... With the exception of Israel; women, gay people and anybody who vocally opposes the government is likely to be persecuted in the Middle East.

    I don't feel any shame in saying that a democracy which strives for equality, treats people with respect regardless of race, sexuality or gender is completely superior to a medieval feudal state quite literally stuck in the Dark Ages... Not that I believe Western democracy can be instantly transplanted into Saudi Arabia.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But don't you agree that our efforts to "give" democracy and freedom to those nations is severely undermined by our own hypocrisy and contempt for the very institution we're trying to promote to them?

    It's not just related to our behaviour in the 70s. Whether we like it or not, the Palestinians chose to elect Hamas in a democratic contest. For us to then reject the result and impose financial penalties on the Palestinians for voting freely is breathtakingly arrogant and hypocritical.

    Throughout the last half decade we have been taking the moral high ground and patronising other nations about our superior government system and our commitment to freedom for the people. That of course is a lie and an illusion, and the only 'freedom' available is freedom to choose between parties pre-approved by the powers that be.

    And worst of all, many citizens in the West will willingly partake in this rape of democracy and freedom by accepting the lies and excuses peddled by our governments to justify the overthrowing of democratically elected governments. The communist party of Italy wasn't going to convert Italy in some Soviet dictatorship hellhole. Nor was Allende in Chile, while we're at it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Liberal Democracy is an illusion in itself...man can only become free if he frees himself from the shackles of Liberalism....
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    The Liberal Democracy is an illusion in itself...man can only become free if he frees himself from the shackles of Liberalism....

    Well put.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Except when you read the article it doesn't quite say that the UK joined a plot, does it?

    It gives a range of options, one of which including supporting a coup, but equally they supported just expelling Italy from NATO.

    Reading between the lines, and having some udnerstanding both of intellgence and civil service procedures, it sounds like a discussion paper which gives various options, including those, like a coup, which probably were not seriously considered (for the reasons the article gives).

    And remember in 1976 we didn't have the cuddly Gorbachev in power (who still was quite happy to open fire on pro-democracy protesters eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius_massacre) but Breshnev. Only the year before the North Vietnamese had taken over South Vietnam (killing tens of thousands of people and sending many others to camps), it was only a few years after the Czech Spring, the Soviet Union was spending about a third and half of their GDP on military spending, was still busy murdering its own citizens (and torturing and jailing other dissidents).

    Communism was one of the two great evils of the twentieth century. Unlike facism, it sadly, still enjoys way too much popular support...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That Britain gave consideration to it is bad enough. The reason it was abandoned is because it would have been difficult to carry through, nothing else.

    The terror communism inflicted in the minds of Western leaders is as disproportionate as laughable. Yes, many atrocities have been commited in communist regimes. But the concept of communism itself does not necessarily cause or promote such behaviour. To suggest that the Italian communist party would have done a Stalin is laughable in the extreme.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    That Britain gave consideration to it is bad enough. The reason it was abandoned is because it would have been difficult to carry through, nothing else.

    The terror communism inflicted in the minds of Western leaders is as disproportionate as laughable. Yes, many atrocities have been commited in communist regimes. But the concept of communism itself does not necessarily cause or promote such behaviour. To suggest that the Italian communist party would have done a Stalin is laughable in the extreme.

    You obviously don't realise how discussion papers work - they deal in extremes. You put up straw men to knock them down.

    It's not the fear of the concept - its the fear of the reality. The Eurocommunists may not have done a Stalin, but they would have been a security risk and we know they had links to the Soviets - so at the very least the idea that they would give the Soviets intelligence isn't far fetched.
    This essay reviews two books that provide diverging views of the relationship between the Italian Communist Party (PCI) and the Soviet Union. The first book, a lengthy collection of declassified documents from the former Soviet archives, provides abundant evidence of the PCI's crucial dependence on Soviet funding. No Communist party outside the Soviet bloc depended more on Soviet funding over the years than the PCI did. Vast amounts of money flowed from Moscow into the PCI's coffers. The Italian Communists maintained their heavy reliance on Soviet funding until the early 1980s. The other book discussed here—a memoir by Gianni Cervetti, a former senior PCI financial official—seeks to defend the party's policy and to downplay the importance of the aid provided by Moscow. Nonetheless, even Cervetti's book makes clear, if only inadvertently, that the link with the Soviet Union helped spark the broader collapse of Marxism-Leninism as a mobilizing force

    http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_cold_war_studies/toc/cws6.3.html
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Even if a communist government had passed information to the Soviets, it certainly does not justify contemplating a coup d'etat- an incredibly serious act with very serious consequences.

    I would have a bit less of a problem with the whole issue if Western governments didn't insist on peddling democracy to the world as the best thing since sliced bread.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Even if a communist government had passed information to the Soviets, it certainly does not justify contemplating a coup d'etat- an incredibly serious act with very serious consequences.

    Except they hardly contemplated did they...

    And passing of intelligence to a dangerous enemy - yes, that is pretty serious and that was only one of the options NATO had to consider.
    I would have a bit less of a problem with the whole issue if Western governments didn't insist on peddling democracy to the world as the best thing since sliced bread

    Yes and I have bit less problems with communism if they hadn't been saying how communism was the savior of men, whilst simultaneously removing millions of them from the face of the earth.

    If the West sometimes suffers from hypocrisy, it pales into insignificance beside that of the Communists and their fellow travellers...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Except they hardly contemplated did they...
    The plans and the CIA infrastructure were in place. Had the communist party won there would have been a real possibility of action being taken, and of Britain participating in it
    And passing of intelligence to a dangerous enemy - yes, that is pretty serious and that was only one of the options NATO had to consider.
    Something that had always happened on both sides. I'm sure by the time the communists had gained power there would have been little for them to get their hands on.


    Yes and I have bit less problems with communism if they hadn't been saying how communism was the savior of men, whilst simultaneously removing millions of them from the face of the earth.

    If the West sometimes suffers from hypocrisy, it pales into insignificance beside that of the Communists and their fellow travellers...
    I'm not saying communism is better than capitalism or democracy... but then again you don't see China invading Iraq and Afghanistan and then lecturing the rest of the Middle East about embracing communism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    The plans and the CIA infrastructure were in place. Had the communist party won there would have been a real possibility of action being taken, and of Britain participating in it.

    Doesn't say that in the article. You do also know that PCI officials went to the USSR for training in insurgency techniques (though to be fair they claimed that was for a doomsday scenario)

    ETA - I think you're getting muddled with Operation Gladio (as to be fair does the Times article). it wasn't set up to deal with a communist election victory, but to deal with a succesful invasion by the Warsaw Pact - akin to WW2 SOE and OSS). It's role wasn't to overthrow Government's but to interdict Soviet forces and make them divert forces from the front line. It's network to arrange a military coup would have been non-existent, as it was based on Italian forces having been destroyed or run away, not on organising them to rise up against a civilan Government.
    Something that had always happened on both sides. I'm sure by the time the communists had gained power there would have been little for them to get their hands on.

    One would hope so... But then that wasn't the only consideration that the West had to think about.
    I'm not saying communism is better than capitalism or democracy... but then again you don't see China invading Iraq and Afghanistan and then lecturing the rest of the Middle East about embracing communism

    You don't see the US murdering thousands in Tibet or killing 30-70m off its own citizens in the Great Leap Forward.

    And the USSR did invade Afghanistan - and if you think the US is brutal they don't gas entire villages, nor is their treatment of prisoners anything like the Soviets (who often resorted to Pathan techniques of skinning prisoners alive, removing testicles etc)

    And yes during the Cold War you did have the Communists lecturing people on embracing communism and then supporting some of the most hideous dictators imaginable. The East Germans, for example trained the Iraqi secret police in the most effective torture techniques. When the US went to Argentinia to train it's people it stuck to the Geneva Convention.

    The West may have been grey, as may the communists. But the grey of the communists was so much darker than that of the West.
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