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Deaf demand right to designer deaf children

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article3087367.ece

How bad is this?

I can't imagine anyone, even deaf parents wanting a deaf child on purpose.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Words escape me.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    in the words of QOTSA

    sick sick sick
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's just sick. I can understand screening them to check if they are deaf, just to prepared like.
    the British Deaf Association (BDA), which is campaigning to amend government legislation to allow the creation of babies with disabilities.

    Who on earth would want this?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    DG wrote: »
    [I can't imagine anyone, even deaf parents wanting a deaf child on purpose.

    anyone who is deaf, i'm sure will understand the problems it brings just living day to day life. why a parent would want to give their child a disability and put their child through all the problems they will have been through is absurd. still... there will always be some parents who go completely out of their way to completely fuck up their child. but i think the whole concept of designer babies is unethical tbh.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    weird - very weird.
    Although a lot of deaf people dont see it as a disablility as much, I still dont see why someone wouldnt want to give their child all the opportunities they could, and being deaf obviously restricts opportunities somewhat in a hearing world.

    I dont see why they would think that a hearing child couldnt be part of the deaf community though. My brother is profoundly deaf, yet has been the sole parent of my nephew since he was 2, and my nephew is hearing but is obviously completely fluent in sign language. My brother has also recently married a hearing woman with 2 deaf children and one hearing child. They all sign, so theres not a problem. I would have thought it would be even handier if a deaf couple had a hearing child at times.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I cannot believe this. not at all.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wow, has the world become so politically correct that we cannot even say any more that deafness is a disability! This is tantamount to crippling your children at birth, and yet it seems to actually being proposed by a serious organisation.

    Sheesh.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But when you actually read what the story is about- rather than reading the Murdoch bullshit- it isn't that shocking at all really.

    The legislation says that it will be ILLEGAL to choose a baby with a disability over a healthy baby, if the baby has been created artificially. The legislation is saying that a couple must choose to destroy an embryo that has the same 'disability' that they do. How much longer before we have enforced abortions for embryos with disabilities?

    I think a piece of legislation like that should be challenged.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    But when you actually read what the story is about- rather than reading the Murdoch bullshit- it isn't that shocking at all really.

    The legislation says that it will be ILLEGAL to choose a baby with a disability over a healthy baby, if the baby has been created artificially. The legislation is saying that a couple must choose to destroy an embryo that has the same 'disability' that they do. How much longer before we have enforced abortions for embryos with disabilities?

    I think a piece of legislation like that should be challenged.

    yeh, it's a technicality - but why would deaf would be parents want to choose to have a deaf child? it's not a life impairing disability, so they should just be used - genetic screening shoul only be used for genetic conditions that will cause an life threatening problem

    i blieve they allowed genetic screening for a gene that only has a slightly higher risk of getting breast cancer, when actually the best way of stopping it is just to have regular checks so if you do get it, you catch it early
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, Kermit's right, it's a legitimate choice. Current thinking is that a disabled person is disabled by society not inherently by their impairment. (I won't go too far into the thinking behind that, I think the RNID should have some info and NUS Disabled Students Campaign almost certainly does).

    With that, and the fact that the deaf community is very strong in the UK, it's not too surprising. Many deaf people use BSL as their first language and don't use English except for reading and writing. I don't think you can let legislation that forces doctors to prioritise the rights of a hearing child over a deaf one should ever be passed. It's tantamount to eugenics.
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    Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    Kermit wrote: »
    The legislation says that it will be ILLEGAL to choose a baby with a disability over a healthy baby, if the baby has been created artificially. The legislation is saying that a couple must choose to destroy an embryo that has the same 'disability' that they do.
    The way I get it, this simply means that if there are two (or more) embryos existing at the same time, AND one of them has to be killed, then that one must be the disabled one. It doesn't say that it will have to be killed even if it's the only one or if both can survive.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    But when you actually read what the story is about- rather than reading the Murdoch bullshit- it isn't that shocking at all really.

    The legislation says that it will be ILLEGAL to choose a baby with a disability over a healthy baby, if the baby has been created artificially. The legislation is saying that a couple must choose to destroy an embryo that has the same 'disability' that they do. How much longer before we have enforced abortions for embryos with disabilities?

    I think a piece of legislation like that should be challenged.

    I see what youre saying. i didnt originally read it like that.
    I dont think deafness is severe enough a disability that someone should HAVE to choose a hearing child over a deaf child. Its not cruel to bring a deaf child into the world, but i dont understand why it would be someones first choice. I guess if it is though, then...

    Who knows.

    What a tricky issue!!!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    genetic screening shoul only be used for genetic conditions that will cause an life threatening problem

    Why? What about conditions like mine which are by no means life threaning nor do they cause life threatening problems, but will cause problems later on in life and mean that we are extremely limited to the types of work we can and can't do?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's alot more complicated than that. Whilst the condition itself doesn't cause pain, the constant head tilting does and generally isn't a nice illness to have and there are some unlucky people (me not being one of them) who are blind and do have other illnesses as well.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Melian wrote: »
    Why? What about conditions like mine which are by no means life threaning nor do they cause life threatening problems, but will cause problems later on in life and mean that we are extremely limited to the types of work we can and can't do?

    what condition is that by the way? it's a bit handy to know

    yes they're called disabilities, because it's disabled one aspect of a normal human body, on the whole, most disabilities can be worked around on a day to day activities and besides all, we're all human
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why would any parent want anything less than the best for their kids?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Why would any parent want anything less than the best for their kids?

    It depends what you mean by the "best" for them though

    The whole idea that a "disabled" baby MUST be destroyed is disgraceful, though. Eugenics a-go-go!
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    Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    Kermit wrote: »
    It depends what you mean by the "best" for them though

    The whole idea that a "disabled" baby MUST be destroyed is disgraceful, though. Eugenics a-go-go!
    Did you read my post? Could you explain what you believe I misinterpreted? Or, in the very least, could you acknowledge that you didn't ignore it simply because I disagreed?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    It depends what you mean by the "best" for them though
    My apologies. I'd had a few when I came on here last night - well, if you can't have a drink on Christmas night, when can you? - so I didn't explain what I meant by this. What I was trying to ask was why any parent would want a child to be born who they had "chosen" to deliberately disable in some way. Don't get me wrong - I realise a lot of "disabled" kids don't actually think they've got a disability at all. In some ways, it's a catch-all term. I don't think we should be too worried if kids are born with things like cleft palates, (sp?) and society does need to look closely at how it deals with this.

    However, where do you draw the line with this? Will it soon be okay to request that your child be white, with blue eyes, blonde hair and of the Aryan race, in the name of "choice" for parents? Hitler would be proud of such a development, wouldn't he?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Could you explain what you believe I misinterpreted?

    My understanding is that it will be illegal to decide to keep a "disabled" baby, which means that any "disabled" embryos will be destroyed. I'm not sure if this applies if all the embryos produced in a batch are "disabled", but statistically it is so unlikely that this will happen that it becomes a moot point.
    stargalaxy wrote:
    What I was trying to ask was why any parent would want a child to be born who they had "chosen" to deliberately disable in some way.

    I don't think many parents would do this; some would, mostly for cultural reasons, but then it becomes an argument of what is a disability and what is not. I don't think many people would be choosing to give a baby Down's or Asperger's, put it that way.

    But the legislation isn't about creating "disabled" embryos; it's about destroying "disabled" embryos. Which I think is abhorrent. Whilst I don't think its ideal having "disabled" babies (and few parents would want that to happen) I don't think it's the Government's place to say that artificially created embryos with "disabilities" should be destroyed. It's a very short step to saying that naturally created embryos with "disabilities" should be destroyed.
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    Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    Kermit wrote: »
    My understanding is that it will be illegal to decide to keep a "disabled" baby, which means that any "disabled" embryos will be destroyed. I'm not sure if this applies if all the embryos produced in a batch are "disabled", but statistically it is so unlikely that this will happen that it becomes a moot point.
    From the article:
    A clause in the Human Tissue and Embryos Bill, which is passing through the House of Lords, would make it illegal for parents undergoing embryo screening to choose an embryo with an abnormality if healthy embryos exist.
    I really don't think you understood it correctly...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From the article:

    I really don't think you understood it correctly...

    I think that he understood it perfectly well.

    Illegal to choose an embryo with an "abnormality" (needs definition) if a healthy one exists is a small step away from eugenics.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would argue eugenics is more along the lines of classing blue eyes vs brown eyes, height factors etc. If you have two embryos with equal chances of survival but only one can be implanted, one has no disability and one has one, it seems common sense that the decision becomes compulsory towards the one with the least 'abnormality'.

    But that's playing a bit of devil's advocate. I agree with wheresmyplacebo. Embryo's shouldn't be automatically screened, only if there's a significant risk of genetic problems.

    The cost of embryo screening isn't cheap, and people with either disabilities or mild abnormalities can live a very happy life anyway.
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    Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    I think that he understood it perfectly well.

    Illegal to choose an embryo with an "abnormality" (needs definition) if a healthy one exists is a small step away from eugenics.
    I would agree to this, but his understanding was that if an embryo has an "abnormality" it should be terminated no matter what. Which is very different than what was actually said.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I mean as far as I can see it comes down to a fairly simple (although complex if you think about it) decision:

    If there are two embryos, one with a disability and one without, should the parents be allowed to choose the one with the disability?

    The law wants to say no, they should be compelled to take the healthy(er) one.

    The protestors are saying they should have the choice.

    Kermit's point seems to be we shouldn't just say 'the law makes sense, go with it', because when you have this legislation down, then it will start to narrow what counts as a disability and lead towards designer babies / eugenics.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    If there are two embryos, one with a disability and one without, should the parents be allowed to choose the one with the disability?
    Depends entirely on what the disability in question is, doesn't it? I mean, I wouldn't willingly "give" a potential child of mine a disability that was so bad they'd struggle to have any quality of life at all.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Depends entirely on what the disability in question is, doesn't it? I mean, I wouldn't willingly "give" a potential child of mine a disability that was so bad they'd struggle to have any quality of life at all.

    Well I agree, as with everything it's not black or white it's varying shades of grey. You could argue an embryo with ginger hair might get bullied more, even, and use that as grounds to pick the other one. Which is kermit's point or how I have interpreted it - you can't just say 'this could cause a problem' and so exclude it. But I agree with you wholeheartedly. A friend may be a carrier of duchennes muscular dystrophy (depends which chromosome she got from her parents) in which case any sons she has may well have a lesser quality and length of life. That's not to say they can't be happy though. But I don't think it's wrong to pick a girl over a boy because the girl won't be affected by the disease. (although embryo screening has come quite far that it can detect DMD in individual embryos so you could just pick out all the ones afflicted).
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    I agree with you wholeheartedly.
    :nervous: Aaargh!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Depends entirely on what the disability in question is, doesn't it? I mean, I wouldn't willingly "give" a potential child of mine a disability that was so bad they'd struggle to have any quality of life at all.

    No-one's 'giving' any child anything, these are embryos that are or are not already affected.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    No-one's 'giving' any child anything, these are embryos that are or are not already affected.

    I think that's why he used "quotation marks". Although the parent isn't giving their child an affliction, they can choose the embryo that is not afflicted and therefore their child won't have the affliction. They could "give" a child an affliction by choosing the embryo that does have the anomoly.
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