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UK - Want a job? Need a passport!

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
How convenient that ID cards will not be compulsory but you'll have to have one if you want a passport. And now you'll need a passport if you want to work! Just another step closer to Police State UK.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23422766-details/Why+ALL+of+us+will+have+to+produce+a+passport+to+get+a+job+in+Britain/article.do
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Having to prove your eligible to work the UK has been in force for several years now and is fairly common practise.

    The new rules do seem to be taking things a bit too far in some areas.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    J wrote: »
    I don't see the problem if you've got nothing to hide. If it helps stop terrorism then I'm all for it.

    remind me how it will stop terroism?


    anyway this is old news, simply because they said voluntary, as in, if you choose to get a passport or driver's license you need an Id card to go with it..... so it's utterly pointless

    hell i'd rather go to prison frankly, what did we win the 2nd world war for
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ID cards would of done jack shit to prevent the 7th July attacks on the London Underground, nor would they have prevented this years attacks on Glasgow airport.

    Lets not pretend ID would stop terrorist getting into the country. Terrorists are already in the country. At the moment they are working as doctors, teachers and civil servants.

    I don't want an ID card at all, I would be happy to move abroad than have to carry and ID card.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    J wrote: »
    I don't see the problem if you've got nothing to hide. If it helps stop terrorism then I'm all for it.

    My big problem is that the government have recently shown they can't be trusted to look after the details they have about us!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Didn't the government just get shown up recently for employing loads of illegal workers?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »
    I don't want an ID card at all, I would be happy to move abroad than have to carry and ID card.
    As a foreigner I have to say I have always been fascinated by the British's repulsion towards the concept of ID cards.

    Now, given this government's 1984-esque tendencies I can see why there are grave concerns about a chipped card that might be able to monitor your movements, purchases etc. But how about a completely 'passive' card? In other words, a photo card with no chip, barcode, magnetic strip or any other such interactive device? Would you still be so opposed to that?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've always been confused as to the huge opposition, too. As Aladdin says, not to a chipped, traceable card, but simply to a form of ID that is common to every UK resident.

    When travelling around Europe I always feel quite jealous of people who have an ID card as... ID even though it obviously does the same job (just not on as far-ranging a basis) as a passport. I think I'd quite like one, in fact...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    im a bit unsure as to what the problem is, why are people so against these ID Card schemes, surely a nationwide standard ID card is a good thing? whats the problem with it unless you have something to hide?

    maybe im missing the point, but i really dont see the issue. the only problem i could see would be if there was a incured financial loss
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    As a foreigner I have to say I have always been fascinated by the British's repulsion towards the concept of ID cards.

    Now, given this government's 1984-esque tendencies I can see why there are grave concerns about a chipped card that might be able to monitor your movements, purchases etc. But how about a completely 'passive' card? In other words, a photo card with no chip, barcode, magnetic strip or any other such interactive device? Would you still be so opposed to that?

    What would be the point in such an innocuous card be?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As Briggi says, i'd quite like an I.D. card, as long as it's cheap :) At the moment i have no 'official' I.D. Can't afford a passport, have a 'basic' bank account so no cheque book, debit card, credit card. Not a member of H.M. forces or a trade union or a student and none of the bills here are in my name. When i first moved here, changing/applying for benefits was a fucking nightmare as i had no proof of who i was or where i lived.

    Though, as someone pointed out, how an I.D. card is going to stop terrorism/ists i've no idea.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be fair I kind of understand concerns about creating databases of fingerprints and DNA as well.

    In Spain ID cards have existed forever and nobody has ever given a second of thought to entertain the notion that they might be less free because of it. People tend to find them very useful actually and the cards simply many tasks from opening bank accounts to proving one's age to allowing travel to the EU without the need of a passport.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sounds more like a step closer to proving who you are.

    Especially since there so many crazy people randomly blowing themselves up and crap.

    How do you think carrying an ID card is going to stop people blowing themselves up?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's not. I don't see how ID cards will stop terrorism in the slightest. Frankly, nothing is going to stop terrorism. If some nutter wants to blow himself up enough, nothing that anyone does is going to stop that.

    What IS relevant is how ID cards can be useful in a) opening bank accounts, b) proving age when buying age-restricted products, c) providing identity and residency when accepting a job, d) proving identity in tons of circumstances where previously you'd be required to bring a passport, driving licence, utility bill etc etc...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Charles demezez(dno how to spell) mistaken identity.

    Peadophiles in schools, crimminals on the loose, terrorists in hiding.

    It's fact these people would be identified quickly.
    How is that gonna stop them blowing things up though?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Charles demezez(dno how to spell) mistaken identity.
    Do you really think that had ID cards existed in 2005 the coppers would have asked De Menezes for his before shooting him 7 times in the head?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I strongly doubt whether Jean Charles de Menezes would not have been shot had he been carrying an ID card.
    Paedophiles in schools? WHAT?!? Are you suggesting that having an ID card would make identifying paedophiles applying for a school caretaker job easier to spot? Or, perhaps a proper police check might suffice...
    Criminals on the loose, terrorists in hiding... yes, because the first thought of CO19 when they burst through the doors of a suspected Al-Quaeda nest is to say 'excuse me, do you mind if I see your ID cards?'
    I think you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you truly believe that ID cards will do ANYTHING to solve terrorism. They will help with illegal immigration, that's true. They have virtually no benefit whatsoever in combating any type of violent crime.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think you mean it will 'benefit criminal and terrorist activity', not that I wish to argue on semantics.

    ID cards will only help control criminal activity and terrorism if you're advocating powers for the police to randomly stop anyone at all, demand their ID card and check to see if they've been committing any crimes. Firstly, that's like returning to Nazi Germany, allowing police unlimited power to stop anyone they don't like the look of. Secondly, one of the main problems with crime is the inability to identify those responsible. You name one form of crime that you think will be effectively reduced by introducing ID cards, and i'll tell you why that's not the case.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Or they could just ask for a passport/driving license to identify their employees.

    Do you mean 7/7 or 9/11? I don't see how ID cards would've prevented 7/7. They were legitimate residents of the UK travelling to London and boarding the tube, much as you yourself might on any given day. If they had ID cards, that wouldn't have changed the fact that they had bombs in their backpacks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You have to suspect the people of terrorism first. Were 7/7 bombers terror suspects before they blew themselves up?
    Anyway, if you can fake passports and driving licences, it'll probably be possible to fake ID cards.
    No, the question is why are ID cards being offered? What is their direct benefit to the citizens of the United Kingdom?
    How will they be able to track people? Installing GPS in the ID cards? Do you really want your every move to be recorded on some Government computer somewhere?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    They spent most of their terrorist planning out of this country though - do you really think the Pakistani government would sanction Britain monitoring anyone travelling there, because they might be potential terror suspects?

    Do you mean, provide checkable ID when they start a new job, or when they arrive at work?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So how is that going to help?
    Let's create an imaginary terror suspect, and to avoid inciting racial hatred, we'll call him 'Fortescue Robinson-Smythe' - or something to that effect. Fortescue was born to Muslim parents in Britain, was a well-rounded individual all through his childhood, until one day, he hears the teachings of a radical Shi'ite cleric at his local mosque. Inspired, he joins the following of said cleric and leaves Britain to go to Pakistan, where he spends six months learning the true way of Allah and how to destroy the infidels and unbelievers of the west. He then returns to Britain with the details of his plan to be a suicide bomber on the tube.
    Fortescue now goes for the job of 'Customer Service Manager' at a Tesco's in Wolverhampton. How, by presenting an ID card, does that make this country safer? Fortescue has committed no previous crimes - it's not going to stop Tescos from employing him. Are MI5 going to be clapping their hands together, they now have definitive proof that Fortescue is now working for a £4 billion company?

    I just don't get how it'll help protect the country from terrorism!!!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How do we know he's a terror suspect?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's no evidence to the security services that he is a terror suspect, so they would have no reason to track him.
    ID cards only make tracing people marginally easier - but they only help if you know who you're trying to trace in the first place. They can't help you identify new threats, only keep an eye on old ones.
    I would have no problem with my details being recorded if I thought it would help stop real criminals. However - I don't believe it will.
    People who are caught with CCTV are caught because they allow their face to be seen. However - people who commit crime with a mask over their face can't be identified using CCTV. How is this going to help cut crime further? Unless they drop their ID card on the way out that is...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    How about a completely 'passive' card? In other words, a photo card with no chip, barcode, magnetic strip or any other such interactive device? Would you still be so opposed to that?

    What would be the point of such a card? If its just for identifcation then my passport proves that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    how will it track them?

    if you want proof of age, use a driver's license, it's REALLY cheap strangely enough

    i have nothing to hide apart from my private life which is MY private life

    almost every government employee will be able to access it

    it won't stop terroists, unless there's a 'tick here if you're a terroist section'

    the act that allowed them go through says the government could add any detail it wants in the future

    as far as i'm aware the government is accountable to the people who vote them in, not the opposite

    illegal immigrants, well they'll find people who want illegals to work for them

    in fact all they do is add another line of bureaucracy, they aren't even trying to make them practical, if they were practical they'd be like a photocard with a little chip and pin on, which has details like residency status and drivers license status and is yours and belongs to you - instead it's just another card....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »

    I don't want an ID card at all, I would be happy to move abroad than have to carry and ID card.



    Where you'd probably be forced to carry an ID card.....?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Where you'd probably be forced to carry an ID card.....?

    the UK one is probably the most comprehensive centralised one ever, we didm't win the 2nd world war for no reason....

    germany has Id cards it's also one of the most private countries in europe as it's just a card with name, DOB & current address
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What if they are seen. An ID card may help track them down, that is how.
    How would an ID card help track them down? Even if they're seen, how difficult would it be to get a positive ID from CCTV? And then to link that to a positive ID on the card? And then to link that to a positive address? They could move and leave no forwarding address.

    Unless you want to put a GPS tracking chip and have the Government know exactly where you are every single moment of the day....

    I'm dead against them. We have passports, driver's license, national insurance cards, student IDs, NUS cards, organ donation cards etc etc etc. We don't need this. It's a waste of money (our money), in an attempt to appease the masses who think that us giving up even more of our personal freedoms is enough of a sacrifice to protect us from a nameless, stateless, faceless enemy... We're being treated like sheep here, and we're being led to the slaughter, and what's more, we're doing it willingly.

    Things never got this bad even when the IRA was bombing mainland UK, and back then we *knew* who the 'bad guys' were...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Charles demezez(dno how to spell) mistaken identity.

    Peadophiles in schools, crimminals on the loose, terrorists in hiding.

    It's fact these people would be identified quickly.

    The Spain bombers had ID cards...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »
    What would be the point of such a card? If its just for identifcation then my passport proves that.
    But passports are expensive and only required for people who intend to travel abroad.

    When you think about it a passive ID card makes a lot of sense. In fact, it wouldn't be any different to driving licences, Proof of Age cards or passports as far as government holding information about citizens is concerned.

    I will concede however that the ID cards proposed by the government are quite different from a 'passive' card and raise far more concerns.
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