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Dialectics anyone?
I'm saying that in 99% of cases that if you're overweight you can do something about it. I know the explanations for obesity, but they do not stop you doing exercise for which you need to take individual responsibility.
Well, no, not everyone does. Some people work very hard, work long hours and look after families and don't have time. You're positing an abstract individual who has time.
Again, an abstracted example, free of any acknowledgement that actually, people work long hours, are tired from work, have other responsibilites, maybe aren't confident doing exercise.
Why exclude people who comfort eat? We all do it from time to time. Food is intrinsically linked to feelings of security, why exclude that as a factor?
More abstraction.
btw, do you understand why I wrote "Dialectics anyone"? We have two (seemingly) opposed views here - (1) people are soley responsible for their actions and (2) people are not as they are subjected to social forces. Now obviously they can't both be true and due to the nature of debate on bulletin boards, these two positions are being polarised. I'm arguing that there must be a synthesis of these two opposing views and I'd like to explore how we might get to that.
Well I'd agree with that to an extent. For starters there's always going to be some people for whom weight gain is much more complex than just exercise, for example those with extremely slow metabolisms, those with such low self esteem they continually comfort eat. Which is why I've been trying to caveat
There is also the explanation of why people put on more weight, less physical work, which is a product of society.
However, whilst that explanation works as to why we've more overweight society, there is nothing in it which stops the majority of people doing more exercise. The answer to that, seems to me, because people have to make choices with their free time and that people who are overweight, in many cases, want to do something other than exercise with their time.
Now, the Government can do things to encourage people to take exercise (and they do quite a bit) But they cannot force people to do so. In the end whether you do exercise or not has to fall down to you as individual.
I'd agree in that clinically obese is not the same as how I'd define someone as obese. On a personal level obesity would be someone who is grossly overweight, however in medical terms it could define someone who I'd called plump, slightly overweight or chubby.
Regarding time, unless you're kept at home with housekeepers etc, I don't think with working hours, anyone actually 'has time' to set aside (I certainly don't, my average day at the moment is getting up at 5 - 6am and getting home around about 10 - 12 hours later, then doing dinner/washing up and some evening studying), it's often a case of making it - (rather like people who are on things like How Clean is Your House - no one has time to clean, you make it.) Sometimes it comes to inefficient time keeping - evauluating your average day into hours can really help to reorganise your time and set your priorities. If anyone is interested, this is a good piece voila. The great thing about exercise is that you feel you have more energy to do things.
Regarding obesity, being Captain Obvious and saying to people that they're fat or being cruel isn't going to help, and it'll just build resentment and disinterest towards things like exercise and healthy eating. People like Gillain McKeith make my skin cringe as she makes healthy eating look extreme, expensive and exclusive - you certainly don't have to go to a specialist health food shop to pick up wild sahara-dried berries or drink foul juice concoctions.
But if people want to change habits, they do need to let go of the excuses, and rise to whatever challenge they set themselves - and that doesn't just apply to losing weight or getting fit. There's no straight up answer in how that's done, I think it just comes down to the individual. I didn't get help for my depression until I was ready to get better, I didn't start studying properly until I accepted that hard work came before success and I didn't change my body shape until I accepted that the hard work came down to me and no one else (or any magic diet, pills or machine) would do that for me.
You're still appealing to notions of the abstracted individual. The current idea we have of individualism is a relatively recent concept.
This is why I rarely post anymore and why I often posted one sentence replies - when I do bother to put some thought into what I post, it's ignored or not understood.
This might help to show you where I'm coming from
http://faculty.maxwell.syr.edu/merupert/Teaching/Liberalism%20&%20Abstract%20Individualism.htm
How do you come to formulate what you mean by "plump" though?
Just to expand (I was cooking dinner earlier) - notions of what does and doesn't constitute plump are socially constructed and do not remain the same throughout history and across cultures. Without any exploration of how these categories are constructed and policed, we're back to abstracted notions again.
I do a 'reasonable' amount of exercise in that I cycle to and from my department/work each day, use the stairs not the lift, and swim about 3 times a week. I don't eat junk food, or food that's bad for you particularly. rarely snack between meals and since I was ill and inactive for 9 months I lost about 1/2 stone and have now stuck at this weight.
When I'm at work, I eat meals from the canteen, which are relatively healthy, but large portions.
I wonder if one of the problems is that customs and societys attitudes aren't changing fast enough.
Portion sizes are often still suitable for people leading an active energetic lifestyle when in reality most commute/have short journeys and work in sedentary jobs, but there is still an ethos that makes many feel you should finish the food on your plate.
That's true. But also irrelevant to the topic in hand. There is scientific evidence that people who are overweight are less healthy. The issue is whether as an individual you are responsible for your weight and can do something about it or not.
And yes I'm dealing with abstract notions, but then without knowing the precise personal circumstances and weight of everyone I'm going to have to deal with things in the abstract.
I'm not sure of your point. We are individuals - that seems self evident to me. and society is created by lots of individual actions and beliefs - it doesn't magically appear.
Now you're right that we're shaped by our environment. But it only shapes us - it doesn't control us. to say otherwise seems to disempower our humanity.
So yes, you do need to take responsibility for as much of your life as you can, and not everyone does. and on very simplistic terms the state needs to step in for when people either fail to take responsibility for themselves (via education and a saftey net) or to help them when things go wrong for which they cannot bear a personal responsibility.
I remember now why I don't bother much with this forum anymore.
"Individuals can no longer be held responsible for obesity" ....
HUH???? Well, Gee....now let's see - how does THAT work? :chin:
Like I'm not responsible for being an addict?
We put it IN OURSELVES - no one is ramming rotten-ronney down MY throat - same as no one is forcing me to use.
We have to be accountable for what we do - we have to stop BLAMING others!!!:shocking:
I spent 5 weeks in Europe recently myself and I didn't see obese ppl there either...but then again; as on the tubes in London, they don't exactly lend themselves to the handi-capped, now do they? :chin:
Survival of the Fittest......
people who are slightyl overweight live longer than those who are slightly underweight
the only people society should worry bout are those who put on massive weight gains or losses, all the ones in between are what make us different
I believe we are more shaped by propoganda - the Government - major stupidity - that sort of thing..... and hay - look at the US now...disempowering by the day.....(falling under IMO the major stupidity factor). :banghead:
http://books.google.com/books?id=xVI6ZYDkDSYC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=%22abstract+individualism%22&source=web&ots=nuoO4GROOL&sig=YUMbtlbjwjtCaeT2G4PYuaPsd_k#PPA42,M1
I partly agree, however, i don't think anyone has argued that there aren't a whole host of reasons why people are - and continue to be - overweight.
How would you distribute the responsibility for someone being overweight and their subsequent necessity to lose weight - if said person is concerned about their health?
I think you've got an interesting point, but i'm not sure how living in a world with unhealthy food advertising dissipates your responsibility to make sensible decisions about your health.
Which is why I said it was dialectical.
But who decides who is overweight? Who draws up the definitions? Who sets the rules? Who decides what is healthy?
The best the medical fraternity have come up with is BMI, which classifies most professional sportsmen and many film stars (such as Brad Pitt, for instance) as grotesquely obese.
Everything to do with the debate is tied up in social norms and societal ideals, which is what Blagsta appears to be getting at. It goes far beyond environmental effects on people (depression, poverty, etc).
Well I'd agree BMI isn't perfect. We often have to use imperfect measurements. But whether or not the BMI is perfect it seems to be pretty indisputable that if you have excess fat there are health risks attached. These may be pretty marginal if you just have a bit of flab and are in your twenties, but they're more significant when you have an excess and our in your fifties.
Of course society has a role. I'm not arguing otherwise. However, at the end of the day, you as an individual have an even bigger role. There might be a societal norm on what the perfect body shape is, but that doesn't stop you doing exercise. And nor because that perfect body shape is slender, does that mean that there is not also health benefits in not having too much fat.
Without doubt society plays a part, but you are still responsible for your own actions surely?