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are humans really THAT special

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
was watching some wildlife programme the other day on these monkeys that live across the americas, they can do multi-step problem solving, teamwork and sharing for tasks that would otherwise be impossible, they ran up a cliff when a jaguar came and threw rocks at it from above, they live in areas they didn't use to simply because they found a place they can effectively harvest nuts from and break them using rocks 7km away, and they know how to ripe them in days as opposed to weeks They also cover themselves in orange juice and rub these leaves over themselves which act as natural repellants

are we really that special?

this is the species in particular http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capuchin_monkey
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Have they got a man on the moon? Have they managed to write Hamlet? Fuck, have they managed to write anything?

    OK they're capable of basic intelligence, but there's no evidence that they're capable of abstract thought or any thinking beyond food and fucking
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Have they got a man on the moon? Have they managed to write Hamlet? Fuck, have they managed to write anything?

    OK they're capable of basic intelligence, but there's no evidence that they're capable of abstract thought or any thinking beyond food and fucking


    it's more than basic intelligence, problem solving on a multiple stage challenge

    and of course they haven't gone to the moon, that's just an extention of tool usage, using tools to make more advanced ones
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And why haven't they gone beyond smashing things on rocks regarding tool use if they are so special?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think humans just got lucky in the evolution stakes in terms of our bodies, which really are the driving force behind our ability to create things and use tools etc.
    Our trouble is that we compare animals to us, and rate them according to our own ideas about what equals intelligence.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And why haven't they gone beyond smashing things on rocks regarding tool use if they are so special?

    i didn't say they're special, i just said it shows we aren't SO special

    if you watched it, it's far more advanced than that but they only do what they need to survive so to speak - in a lab they were able to use a large stone to smash a smaller stone to make a cutting tool to tear open a sealed container, whilst using tokens to ask for objects....

    there was another thing they done with them, they gave 2 of these monkeys white tokens, when the 1st monkey (call him A) gave token he got a dried biscuit, and moneky B got a grape
    they gave them another token straight after, when A turned in token and got a biscuit he gave it back for a token whilst B got a grape
    after a few more repeats the monkey was hinting at the grapes

    the mannerism in which it was done was far more advanced than any other animal i've ever seen

    not suggesting they're more intelligent than humans im just saying human intelligence isn't that special it's just an extended version of what other primates are capable of
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think humans just got lucky in the evolution stakes in terms of our bodies, which really are the driving force behind our ability to create things and use tools etc.

    the opposing thumb is one of them, ability to use tools doesn't mean individuals will though :p im crap drawing, but good at physical problem solving
    Our trouble is that we compare animals to us, and rate them according to our own ideas about what equals intelligence.

    i dont know really, it's impossible to not see things in relation to us, what other benchmarks do we have that are understood as well as ourselves actually let me rephrase we dont know loads about our own intellect, but we know more about it than other animals, like the fact we make our decisions before we actually come to realising we have
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i dont know really, it's impossible to not see things in relation to us, what other benchmarks do we have that are understood as well as ourselves actually let me rephrase we dont know loads about our own intellect, but we know more about it than other animals, like the fact we make our decisions before we actually come to realising we have

    Yes, I agree, the one thing in which we do excel is self awareness. However, I don't think that one part entitles us to dismiss other animals as less intelligent. Also, I agree that we can only look at things from our own point of view, but that doesn't mean it's the right point of view.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think logic is one thing, as is team work and basic communication - but conciousness is an entirely different thing - whilst it's impossible to quantify in humans it does seem to be the key to language, thought and reasoning on an abstract level.

    Must dig out Ascent of Man again...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    was watching some wildlife programme the other day on these monkeys that live across the americas, they can do multi-step problem solving, teamwork and sharing for tasks that would otherwise be impossible, they ran up a cliff when a jaguar came and threw rocks at it from above, they live in areas they didn't use to simply because they found a place they can effectively harvest nuts from and break them using rocks 7km away, and they know how to ripe them in days as opposed to weeks They also cover themselves in orange juice and rub these leaves over themselves which act as natural repellants

    are we really that special?

    this is the species in particular http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capuchin_monkey

    Heh, brilliant house helper:
    Human assistance

    Some organizations, such as Helping Hands in Boston, Massachusetts, have been training capuchin monkeys to assist quadriplegics in a manner similar to mobility assistance dogs. After being socialized in a human home as infants, the monkeys undergo extensive training before being placed with a quadriplegic. Around the house, the monkeys help out by doing tasks including microwaving food, washing the quadriplegic's face, and opening drink bottles.

    We're still animals at the end of the day, although I'd say we were special as we have uniquely adapted to the planet. Along with extra questions that other species don't think about. What happens after death? etc. (spawning religion etc.)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    is spawning religion a good thing?

    capuchin monkeys are a amazing, you really needed to have watched that documentary to understnad how intelegent they actually are...

    i honestly don't think that we are THAT special, but maybe thats because i have a great respect for nature, and other living things. I personally don't think we are superior, and i think that even that thought, that we are, is egotistical. we have created lots of technology. But WE ARE KILLING OUR OWN PLANET! no other animal is commiting as much destruction as we are. we have become no more than paracites...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    there's no evidence that they're capable of abstract thought or any thinking beyond food and fucking

    To be fair, there's more than a few humans who fall into that category:p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well we are bound to think we are something special because we ARE humans, whereas im sure capuchin monkeys think that they are personally the bees knees!

    All animals are equally important
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    no they are not. we must use animals for reasearch to find cures for humans. animals do not have hospitals, labs, houses, schools, jobs, if they are so smart why dont they even have a military or a parliament?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well we are bound to think we are something special because we ARE humans, whereas im sure capuchin monkeys think that they are personally the bees knees!

    All animals are equally important

    I agree, but I do think humans are 'unique' (perhaps a better word than special, but the same meaning non?) in the sense of our accomplishments, and the height of our reasoning, asking questions that we can't answer in the search of 'wisdom' or understanding.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yea but we have better facilities than animals.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so?
    Animals get along quite nicely without paliaments and hospitals. Its only humans that really fuck them over using and abusing them. Theyd just as soon have you for hurting one of their own as you would them, thereby thinking THEY were the most important.
    Also plenty of animals do have quite sophisticated social systems.

    I think humans are pretty special and unique in terms of that we are very aware and very able, but we are still just another animal really and we dont fuck over the other animals and the rest of the planet because we have some sort of right to. We just do it because we can. we have the brute force. that doesnt make it ok and it doesnt make us better than them. Weve done the same thing to plenty of other members of the human race too, and that didnt make us better than them. Plenty would say it made us worse.
    depends which side youre looking at it from.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sophisticated? ok lets go look for bugs on each other and eat them. grooming? i beleive is what they call it. this is what monkeys do. not sophisticated now eh?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and whats with that?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    They don't have souls.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    or do they?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so?
    Animals get along quite nicely without paliaments and hospitals. Its only humans that really fuck them over using and abusing them. Theyd just as soon have you for hurting one of their own as you would them, thereby thinking THEY were the most important.
    Also plenty of animals do have quite sophisticated social systems.

    Humans tend not to leave their sick and old to die. I'd say our social systems are better than monkeys...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Humans tend not to leave their sick and old to die.

    Really?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    OK they're capable of basic intelligence, but there's no evidence that they're capable of abstract thought or any thinking beyond food and fucking

    Everything that human's do on this planet essentially comes down to these two main urges. Want to achieve something? Why? Because you want to raise your social status, and be seen as more attractive by the opposite sex. That's all it comes down to at the end of the day. It's only a sense that that is a rather futile existance and human imagination that makes us think that we're more than that. And it's the way we've evolved that determines the methods of becoming socially accepted (i.e. through helping others rather than violence like certain other animals).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    I think logic is one thing, as is team work and basic communication - but conciousness is an entirely different thing - whilst it's impossible to quantify in humans it does seem to be the key to language, thought and reasoning on an abstract level.

    Are you saying that only humans have consciousness? From my limited knowledge of evolutionary biology, there are three main relatively unexplained steps. These are the origins of single cell life, the switch to multi-cellular life, and the evolution of conscious beings that don't follow a simple set of basic patterns of behaviour. I would say that any animal which is capable of making decision-making skills, however primitive, shows an element of consciousness. That's what seperates animals from bacteria and other lifeforms. I think the mistake people make is that our own decisions are any less caused by natural urges and instincts than the decisions of a lion or bird or any other animal.

    Oh, and to answer the question, no humans aren't that special in the grand scheme of things. They are only special from our perspective, because it's in humans nature to make sure that their genes carry on.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Everything that human's do on this planet essentially comes down to these two main urges. Want to achieve something? Why? Because you want to raise your social status, and be seen as more attractive by the opposite sex. That's all it comes down to at the end of the day. It's only a sense that that is a rather futile existance and human imagination that makes us think that we're more than that. And it's the way we've evolved that determines the methods of becoming socially accepted (i.e. through helping others rather than violence like certain other animals).

    How do you therefore explain:

    - law
    - religion
    - music
    - sending a man to the moon
    - the rspca / nhs etc.

    These don't have a foundation in any of the primary instincts which I think are in this order:

    1. To live / avoid danger
    2. To eat / avoid starvation & dehydration
    3. To procreate

    So nobody feels horny when they're hungry. Nobody feels hungry when they're scared, because it all gets overriden. These are hard coded into every human being, natural urges and instinct.

    People striving to succeed don't do so necessarily because they want to attract a really good mate. It's something more now. Some people want to succeed because they want to create something amazing. I mean, look at musicians and artists. They've created masterpieces and often not received any recognition in return, but did it because they wanted to create or express something important to them.

    Was the only reason anyone wrote a book to make money and get famous?

    I think this is where we are unique because we are capable of thinking about more. Self sacrifice for a 'cause' for example. It's the instinct of any living thing, above all else, to preserve it's own life (well, maybe not ants, not sure). Yet human's have overrided their own strongest instinct and gone to their deaths to save others, make a statement or just to draw attention to their situation.

    I've never seen an animal in a zoo, as wonderful as they are, go on a hunger strike for emancipation. It's not reached that level of reasoning, it can't override it's overriding instincts for safety and food.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    -Humans are the smartest animals on the planet.
    -Who says that?
    -Humans!

    :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    -Humans are the smartest animals on the planet.
    -Who says that?
    -Humans!

    :p

    I like the argument (can't remember it) that goes something like:

    dolphins are the smartest animals because they just play around all day!
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    I like the argument (can't remember it) that goes something like:

    dolphins are the smartest animals because they just play around all day!
    It's from "hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy".
    Something like "Humans thought they were smarter because dolphins just play around all day, while they have built things etc. Dophins thought they were smarter for the same reasons."
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    fine then lets interview animals.
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