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and who gives a fuck if they sprayed a few trains, i love graffiti, it gives a lot of colour and character to otherwise 'bland' things, citys would look boring as fuck without it
fair enough some silly scribbling from people tagging doesn't look all that good, but some of it really is amazing
I see very little evidence for the sentence handed out being of any value in a deterrent form or a rehabilitation form; 15 months of prison for this is not a productive way to deter or prosecute this crime. For a first offence one might infer that it was harsh.
I for one will be signing the FaceBook petition for their sentence to be reviewed
It is completely not the same principal, in addition to the fact that no legal system can or should judge a crime on what it is similar to. Offences need to be considered on their own merit, as they quite rightly are.
The parents of the two convicted offered to make good the monies involved, so there was an avenue open for them to be reimbursed.
Again, for a first offence the sentencing judge did not show proportionality or discretion.
It says £13,000 worth of damage in that story you linked.
Prison's not meant to be easy (though that's what it's become). Sentance was too short and like MoK says, the scrotes will probably be out be Christmas.
just being picky....but calling them taggers is mistaken when that term refers to people who simply write their name (or a small word) within 10 seconds for the sole purpose of destroying the property.
from the photo shown, it seems like these guys had some talent, and were not out with the sole purpose of destroying anything, but to do a piece of art. they obviously spent some time doing their work. its just a shame they picked the wrong places to do it.
and the '£25000 destroyed property'? its hardly destroyed. it just needed a big clean. 'destroyed' would mean they set it on fire or something.
a very harsh punishment, where no-one really benefits.
The severity of this crime is the same as if they had stolen the same value of property. How anyone can claim it is not is beyond me.
Put it this way: if they'd just done that to your house, would you be wanking on about their "talent"? I'd be pushing for them to have their hands chopped off.
Would you be saying the same if it was YOUR property that they'd spray painted?
£25,000 from network rail and TOC is nothing compared to a granny having £200 nicked, it's like when someone stole bill gates credit card info and sent him loads of viagra with it
anyway, shouldnt the 240 hours community service limit be raised so someone can get made to do some serious restorative justice
It's not about 'letting them get away with it'. It's about 'proportionality' as somebody else put it. A 15 month custodial sentence is extremely harsh for vandalism and a first offence, in relation to the sentence you might get for beating up a nurse after already attacking a PC
Instead of condemning the short sentence given for the porn or assault, we say that the vandals were treated harshly.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
Don't you think that it's a little perverse to argue for greater leniency?
I don't think it's saying one way or the other, just that the system for punishing people is fucked up in this country. Comparing anomolies like this is perfectly justifiable.
No, I think we have short(ish) sentences in the UK because generally, custodial sentences do more harm than good. If you prefer to be cynical, you could argue it's because our prisons are overcrowded already. (If you feel we ought to go the way of America and lock everyone up for years based on a fixed mandate - where 1 in 136 end up behind bars - then be my guest).
The reason judges and magistrates in the UK are able and encouraged to use their discretion more is to make the system fairer - so that each individual case is judged on it's own merit. Whether it's too harsh or too lenient on the whole is another argument really. Personally, I think that 15 months is way too long, instinctively, for something that is a lesser crime.
But I think more the reason why people like to see 'taggers' locked up for longer is more because it gives a feeling of satisfaction, revenge, etc. I mean, when someone overtakes you driving like a twat, you do hope he crashes at the next junction so you can say what a crap driver he is, and that he trashes his overly modded car.
Thats fair enough rhetoric, but in reality it's not fair to the person, and neither is this sentence fair in line with not just the law in the UK but just a common sense of natural justice we all have. Arguing 'if they don't want the time they shouldn't have done the crime' or things to that effect isn't applicable - would you say the same thing for an extreme miscarriage of justice where someone had their hands chopped off for theft?
But if someone pissed you off by nicking your stuff - I bet you'd fancy them having their hands chopped off. Which again, is why judges and magistrates are supposed to deliver sentences fairly and impartially and in line / in proportion to other sentences they give.
And you know what Kermit, if someone did that to my house, I would have them clean it off themselves as part of good hard community service and possibly a SUSPENDED sentence.
There is no need to put them in prison with violent criminals etc for that.
And sorry but what they did is in no way comparable with stealing 25K - how can someone of your intelligence even come to that conclusion?
For a start, they didn't fucking steal anything. :rolleyes:
And as far as damage goes - it wasn't permanent, they could of made them clean the trains themselves and pay for the products/repainting whatever as well - and the parents even offered to re-coup the money.
It's not the same as theft on any level, I fucking hate thieves.
This also look good?
http://www.uscoles.com/bikepix/asrailbridgegraffitil.jpg
Thats not the same people ?
Irrelevent really tho, seeing as tho the two arrested weren't responsible for that peice of graffiti.
I'd probably agree with you, but the maximum community service sentence is 240 hours. I do not think that 240 hours CS is a suitable punishment for someone who has caused £25,000 worth of damage.
If Northern Trains (or their insurer) had had £25,000 nicked out of the petty cash, they would be £25,000 down.
If Northern Trains (or their insurer) had had to pay out £25,000 to repair criminal damage, they would be £25,000 down.
Sounds like the same outcome to me. Damaging something like that is the equal of taking it IMHO. Northern Trains, and other voluntary organisations, have lost thousands of pounds for the actions of two criminals.
And I'm surprised at how many people in Manchester are defending these men, seeing as that £25,000 is going to be recouped from them in their train fares.
I'd also go out on a limb so far as to say that damaging trains in this fashion causes more damage to society than looking at images of children being sexually abused, seeing as the children quite often were abused 20 years ago.
:rolleyes:
If someone runs someone over by accident a family loses a loved one.
If someone puts a gun to someones head and pulls the trigger, a family loses a loved one.
Hardly the same fucking thing though is it? Very poor argument imo. The outcome does not determine the crime.
Seriously, WTF??? That is down right offensive to children that have been abused and pictures posted, its a fucking disgraceful thing to say.
Straw man argument. The defining difference in your argument is intent- you cannot accidentally hold a gun to someone's head and shoot them.
I don't really think that you can claim that these two young men accidentally caused Northern Rail, and other volunteer organisations, to suffer losses of £25,000. I don't think you can claim that they didn't mean to break into Longsight train depot in the dead of night and spray paint all the trains in the yard.
Of course, if they tripped over and accidentally sprayed their name over everything in sight, and were so unlucky that it happened to them in towns 100 miles apart on different night, then I might agree that the sentence was a bit harsh.
A better argument for you would have been death by dangerous driving and manslaughter- and both carry roughly the same sentence tariff, funnily enough.
Is it, though, when you think about it?
Take Chris Langam (because that's who ShyBoy was obviously referring to). He didn't abuse a child, and he didn't specifically order photographs of child sex abuse to be taken. Of course his actions are despicable, and you won't hear me arguing about his jail sentence, but stop and think about it for a second.
The children had been sexually abused, and would have been anyway, regardless of his downloading habits. The real menace to society is the sick fuck who abused them and posted their photographs on the internet.
Still doesn't make it right though, does it?
I personally don't think the two can be compared, tbh.
No, it doesn't, but IMHO it makes someone like Langham less of a danger to society than someone who is prepared to go on a £25,000 rampage of destruction because he is "bored".