Home Politics & Debate
If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨

Gordon Brown shows some spine?

UK to expel four Russian diplomats over the Litvinenko murder row

I agree with the measure myself. It should not stop there either.

*awaits the arrival of the appeasement brigade warning us all about loss of profits for British businesses*
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
«1

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Russia will loose out more than anyone! Britain sways alot of power financially and internationally! Were not a world power for our military force you know. Also, this doesn't further impair the relationship with Britain alone, Europe as a whole I think! The Kremlins already threated the continent!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Box wrote: »
    Russia will loose out more than anyone! Britain sways alot of power financially and internationally! Were not a world power for our military force you know. Also, this doesn't further impair the relationship with Britain alone, Europe as a whole I think! The Kremlins already threated the continent!

    They have gas and oil, we cant do anything serious against them. Russia has a lot of power over the EU if she chose to use it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    They have gas and oil, we cant do anything serious against them. Russia has a lot of power over the EU if she chose to use it.

    But it works both ways - we might loose some cheap oil and gas and the worse case scenario is more expensive oil (but not a scarcity). But Russia needs to sell her oil and gas, its no good just sitting in the ground. And given how much their economy relies on selling it the damage is likely to be much more serious to them than us...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But it works both ways - we might loose some cheap oil and gas and the worse case scenario is more expensive oil (but not a scarcity). But Russia needs to sell her oil and gas, its no good just sitting in the ground. And given how much their economy relies on selling it the damage is likely to be much more serious to them than us...
    Unfortunately many people won't hear about smaller profits/higher prices (delete as appropriate). So at the end we end up doing what we always do and let money talk.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But it works both ways - we might loose some cheap oil and gas and the worse case scenario is more expensive oil (but not a scarcity). But Russia needs to sell her oil and gas, its no good just sitting in the ground. And given how much their economy relies on selling it the damage is likely to be much more serious to them than us...

    Exactly! It was the same with Iraq. Its now the same in Iran! Relations with Iran are probably in a worser state than that of Russia, yet they still supply the west with oil regardless!

    I hate all this shit. Like I haven't got enough to worry about :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But it works both ways - we might loose some cheap oil and gas and the worse case scenario is more expensive oil (but not a scarcity). But Russia needs to sell her oil and gas, its no good just sitting in the ground. And given how much their economy relies on selling it the damage is likely to be much more serious to them than us...

    Possibly, though some EU countries especially Germany could be given a short sharp shock if the gas was turned off even if it was only for a week. Russia could always turn its attention to the Eastern market.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    Possibly, though some EU countries especially Germany could be given a short sharp shock if the gas was turned off even if it was only for a week. Russia could always turn its attention to the Eastern market.

    Long term it might, but in the short term its not like you can switch sellling gas or oil at will - the infrastructure isn't there.

    Also it might not be in the Russian's interests to piss of the rest of the EU in a sulk with the UK, but its very much in the EU's interests to take a collective approach to be threatened by Russia.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Long term it might, but in the short term its not like you can switch sellling gas or oil at will - the infrastructure isn't there.

    Also it might not be in the Russian's interests to piss of the rest of the EU in a sulk with the UK, but its very much in the EU's interests to take a collective approach to be threatened by Russia.

    I agree, I dont see it turning off the taps any time soon, but we should remember it has done it to Ukraine and other countries.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm with Budda on this one (for once).

    The gas crisis last year with the Ukraine and the Georgian goods embargo on top of that showed two things - firstly, just how much power Russia actually holds over Europe and the world as a whole and secondly, the West's reaction showed just how scared it is of Russia actually flexing her political and economic might.

    Couple that with the US decision to put missile defence systems a stone's throw from Russian borders and you've got all the evidence you need that the West is getting seriously wary of Russia's power.

    Like Budda said, they've got oil, gas, shit loads of metal, gold, the largest natural diamond reserves in the world, more trees than the Amazon rainforest, ICBMs and MiG 29s. The world has reason to be wary of Mother Russia.

    Personally I don't know why they should give up Lugovoi. The Russian constitution forbids the extradition of any Russian citizen to a foreign power and Putin does treat the constitution of the R.F. with a lot of respect (which is why he is stepping down in 2008) so personally, I don't really know what else Russia could do.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The gas crisis last year with the Ukraine and the Georgian goods embargo on top of that showed two things - firstly, just how much power Russia actually holds over Europe and the world as a whole and secondly, the West's reaction showed just how scared it is of Russia actually flexing her political and economic might.

    Couple that with the US decision to put missile defence systems a stone's throw from Russian borders and you've got all the evidence you need that the West is getting seriously wary of Russia's power.

    Unless they have sorted out their problem with feeding themselves, they have very little power at all.
    Personally I don't know why they should give up Lugovoi.

    Because he should stand trial?
    The Russian constitution forbids the extradition of any Russian citizen to a foreign power and Putin does treat the constitution of the R.F. with a lot of respect (which is why he is stepping down in 2008) so personally, I don't really know what else Russia could do.

    Constitutions can be changed, other nations have managed to do it.

    Is it right that a foreign national can [allegedly] kill in the UK with impunity?

    Are you letting your love of Russia cloud the issue?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the truth is russia could live off its central bank reserves much longer than europe can live without its oil, even a price spike (which would be accentuated by the fact most EU countries don't store more than 20-30 days' reserves anymore, so any shortages have more of an instant impact) would cause a slump in growth and inflation / interest rates would rocket, which would do a lot more economic damage here than any short term loss of oil revenue russia would suffer. also iirc the EU countries don't negotiate oil contracts collectively so they have relatively little bargaining power politically with russia, no one country is going to stand up on its own.....there was a show on panorama showing how the uk is the most vulnerable because we are the farthest away from the pipelines through georgia/kazakhstan etc, if this is true i wonder what the govt is trying to piss russia off for? you'd be a fool to think it's for any moral reason as suggested in the news.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Unless they have sorted out their problem with feeding themselves, they have very little power at all.

    This isn't the 90s anymore. The level of prosperity in the small parts of Russia I have seen is quite astonishing. Perhaps a consequence of the UK leading the foreign investment in Russia with a figure of around £3bn. I know that even in the region in the south where I was studying, there is 1bn euros of German money invested and this is not an uncommon pattern in Russia. One of the reasons Putin enjoys the popularity that he does.
    Because he should stand trial?

    Just as Boris Berezovsky and Akhmed Zakayev should in Russia for embezzlement and fraud and mass murder and international terrorism respectively yet here they are in London free to galavant around just as Lugovoi is in Moscow. Aint diplomacy a bitch?

    Yes I am partly biased towards Russia but aren't we all biased to a certain degree or another?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Perhaps a consequence of the UK leading the foreign investment in Russia with a figure of around £3bn.

    hang on, didn't you say how the West should "fear" Russia. Without such investment aren't they going to struggle?
    Just as Boris Berezovsky and Akhmed Zakayev should in Russia for embezzlement and fraud and mass murder and international terrorism respectively yet here they are in London free to galavant around just as Lugovoi is in Moscow. Aint diplomacy a bitch?

    You think thta outspoken critics of Putin would have a "fair" trial? Given the history of what has happened to his opponents, I mean...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the truth is russia could live off its central bank reserves much longer than europe can live without its oil, even a price spike (which would be accentuated by the fact most EU countries don't store more than 20-30 days' reserves anymore, so any shortages have more of an instant impact) would cause a slump in growth and inflation / interest rates would rocket, which would do a lot more economic damage here than any short term loss of oil revenue russia would suffer. also iirc the EU countries don't negotiate oil contracts collectively so they have relatively little bargaining power politically with russia, no one country is going to stand up on its own.....there was a show on panorama showing how the uk is the most vulnerable because we are the farthest away from the pipelines through georgia/kazakhstan etc, if this is true i wonder what the govt is trying to piss russia off for? you'd be a fool to think it's for any moral reason as suggested in the news.

    I don't know about elsewhere, but the UK longer than 30 days.

    If Russia did turn of the oil the UK has plenty of time to buy in further oil from abroad - it may be more expensive, but its not catastrophic. And the UK is not Ukraine. The EU has an interest in acting collectively and not letting its members be bullied a) because it could happen to any of them b) it would spell the end of the EU as a collective group.

    Its also in the interests of several other countries to stand by the UK (who's a major trading partner - which the USSR isn't) eg US, Japan, Australia.

    And to be honest a spat like this isn't going to result in any cutting of pipelines. There may come a time, but its not close...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't know about elsewhere, but the UK longer than 30 days.

    If Russia did turn of the oil the UK has plenty of time to buy in further oil from abroad - it may be more expensive, but its not catastrophic. And the UK is not Ukraine.

    yep that would make sense, we only became a net importer fairly recently so i would hope we are in a better position than other countries having had NS oil for the last few decades...
    The EU has an interest in acting collectively and not letting its members be bullied a) because it could happen to any of them b) it would spell the end of the EU as a collective group.

    Its also in the interests of several other countries to stand by the UK (who's a major trading partner - which the USSR isn't) eg US, Japan, Australia.

    And to be honest a spat like this isn't going to result in any cutting of pipelines. There may come a time, but its not close...

    i agree that's all well and good in theory, the problem is when scarcity beceomes an issue it's going to be every man for himself, trading alliances won't count for a lot if you can't keep your economy going you won't have much to trade....but yes, we are a few years off yet i hope, i can't see anything coming from this spat it's just odd as thunderstruck has pointed out, we let plenty of morally questionable people reside in the UK so why the outrage now?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i can't see anything coming from this spat it's just odd as thunderstruck has pointed out, we let plenty of morally questionable people reside in the UK so why the outrage now?

    Well historically the British Government has tended to react rather badly to foreign powers murdering British subjects within the UK...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    hang on, didn't you say how the West should "fear" Russia. Without such investment aren't they going to struggle?

    And that investment is beginning to bear fruit. But that's not the only source of income they rely on. The investment was really to get the oil and gas flowing which is now bearing a lot of fruit. Monetary and gold reserves are enormous so to be honest, I don't think that if the UK pulled out their investment, the impact would really be felt all that much. The money has been in the system too long for it to suddenly collapse the instant it was pulled out.
    You think thta outspoken critics of Putin would have a "fair" trial? Given the history of what has happened to his opponents, I mean...

    Yeah, outspoken critics of Putin who just happen to be fraudsters and terrorists...

    Personally, if an arrest warrant was out for me, the issuer of it wouldn't be on my Christmas card list...

    Plus it's very easy to criticise Putin from the UK, safe within your Surrey mansion guarded by former members of the French foreign legion...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well historically the British Government has tended to react rather badly to foreign powers murdering British subjects within the UK...

    lol true, i'll admit i don't know the history but Alexander Litvinenko doesn't strike me as a particularly british sounding name? Never mind what his passport says the guy's about as British as I am Russian c'mon...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lol true, i'll admit i don't know the history but Alexander Litvinenko doesn't strike me as a particularly british sounding name? Never mind what his passport says the guy's about as British as I am Russian c'mon...
    He was a British citizen, that doesn't mean he was British.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lol true, i'll admit i don't know the history but Alexander Litvinenko doesn't strike me as a particularly british sounding name? Never mind what his passport says the guy's about as British as I am Russian c'mon...

    He took out British citizenship ergo a British citizen.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Franki wrote: »
    He was a British citizen, that doesn't mean he was British.

    err that's kind of my point, i'm saying i could understand the govt having to show some action if it was a local but i thought the dude was russian? or somewhere near the baltics anyways....
    He took out British citizenship ergo a British citizen.

    thanks batman :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    thanks batman :p

    The British Government has the same responsibilities towards any British subject.

    It doesn't matter what your name is, where your born, your colour or whatever else.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    err that's kind of my point, i'm saying i could understand the govt having to show some action if it was a local but i thought the dude was russian? or somewhere near the baltics anyways....

    Because he was a British citizen, I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) they are treating him like everyone else who's a British citizen and trying to find the guy that killed him. Obviously the fact that their suspect is in Russia is going to present a *bit* of a problem.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The British Government has the same responsibilities towards any British subject.

    It doesn't matter what your name is, where your born, your colour or whatever else.

    lol don't get me wrong, i wasn't born here either and don't have a jot of british ancestry so i'd love it if that was the case, i'm just a bit more cynical i guess......i just can't see why britain would jeopardise diplomacy with a world superpower over some poor sod who pissed the wrong people off, happens all the time....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I personally think that expelling four envoys is a largely cosmetic reaction. It won't work - President Putin is not one for listening.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah, outspoken critics of Putin who just happen to be fraudsters and terrorists...

    According to the person who they criticise...
    Plus it's very easy to criticise Putin from the UK, safe within your Surrey mansion guarded by former members of the French foreign legion...

    Well, not completely safe, after all he may send someone round with some pullonium tea ;)

    NB It's a damned sight safer in a house in th eUK surrounded by armed guards than it is in Moscow, right? TBH The example you give is actually a sign that criticising Putin in Russia isn't a good life choice and yet you seem to criticise his opponents for doing it from a position of safety as ifit's something they should be ashamed of...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And that investment is beginning to bear fruit. But that's not the only source of income they rely on. The investment was really to get the oil and gas flowing which is now bearing a lot of fruit. Monetary and gold reserves are enormous so to be honest, I don't think that if the UK pulled out their investment, the impact would really be felt all that much. The money has been in the system too long for it to suddenly collapse the instant it was pulled out.

    Investment isnt being pulled out, its being pushed out, the Russian State is stealing whole gas and oil fields from the companies who got them going, the recent BP 'deal' is a prime example.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lol surprise surprise, handbags at dawn...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Cold War Two
    This time...its personal
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Russia is behaving awfully. Im well behind the UK in it stance. We have to show we wont just lie down and accept dirty Russian tactics used on British soil.
Sign In or Register to comment.