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We want stricter alcohol laws, say docs

According to the Beeb: "Doctors are calling for stricter alcohol laws in a bid to reduce the number of alcohol-related deaths. Over the last 15 years, alcohol deaths have more than doubled to over 8,000 a year, according to the Office for National Statistics. The British Medical Association conference is to debate calls for a ban on street drinking, and for the legal alcohol buying age to be raised to 21. The driving alcohol limit should also be cut, public health doctors say." Click here for more...

I'm never quite sure what to think when the BMA are having their annual conferences, but here goes. Firstly, I think that banning street drinking seems a largely cosmetic proposal. Aside from making a street look better for some, I fail to see what else it would do. Regarding the alcohol laws... I'd be in favour of pushing up the age limits on spirits and vodkas up to 21. These tend to be the most powerful alcoholic drinks. The problem is, enforcing the law is already a horrendously difficult job for retailers and bars, and they won't appreciate the extra pressures such a change would bring.

Reduce the driving alcohol limit? The EU is looking at trying to harmonise this policy across all member states. Britain's is one of the highest limits. I'd be all in favour of pushing that limit down. I find the Department of Transport's response to all this pathetically relaxed, but I would expect no better.

None of us are in doubt that deaths from alcohol, and also alcoholism is very worrying. But nobody seems to agree how to deal with it. What would you do? And what do you think of the BMA's suggestions?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hmm, driving limits I agree. Dunno about the rest. But I do wonder if you went into a bar in continental Europe as pissed as some of the people you see getting served in our town centres, would you get served? I know we work more hours on average than any other country in Europe. Maybe it's something to do with that - i.e. trying to get in as much fun as possible before you're back to work? I don't agree with increasing age limits, because the current ones are properly enforced anyway, and there doesn't seem to be any link between age restrictions in certain countries, and rates of underage drinking (and I think excessive drinking isn't exclusive to younger drinkers anyway).

    Maybe encourage a greater range of (cheaper) non-alcoholic options in pubs and clubs. When a J2O or Pepsi costs the same amount as an alcoholic drink, no-one's gonna buy it. But then when a pub can serve 10 people and make £25 or serve 10 people are make £10, they're gonna encourage people to buy the first one. Discouraging promotions designed to make you drink more is another option, (cheap doubles etc.), but I'm not sure how you convince owners, and I'm not a fan of legislating how they run their business. Ultimately, it's the culture that needs to change, and that can't be done by law, or there would be no-one taking illegal drugs in Britain. I don't know how to do it, but I suspect increased working hours for Brits over Europeans is at least a factor. And I think that 24 hour drinking will help in the long term, but this "get it down" culture has been established over decades, so it won't change just like that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How about an alcohol ban in all public places?
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Eh, yeah, drink driving limits would be better lower. Some people are ok after 1 beer, others are not. Just a complete ban on drinking and driving at all.

    Also anyone thought of banning smoking at the wheel? That's dangerous.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Alcohol advertising should be banned

    All cheap drinks promotions should be banned

    All sports sponsorship should be stopped
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ban cheap drinks? No way! Why should everyone be punished just because some people are irresponsible?

    I think there should be a complete ban on drinking and driving. It's hard to know if you are over the limit and too many people presume they are okay, when legally they possibly are not.

    Could be difficult to implement though, I mean today I have drunk quite a bit of cough medicine, which contains 6% alcohol.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    Alcohol advertising should be banned

    All cheap drinks promotions should be banned

    All sports sponsorship should be stopped

    D'you think any of them would have an effect? You can't change attitude to drinking by making laws. All of those things are present in countries where alcohol isn't as much of a problem. And plus, I don't want us to lose Guinness adverts. :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It only makes sense that if they're going to ban cigarette advertising, they might as well do it with alcohol too. Both are legal yet cost many lives a year.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    budda wrote: »
    All cheap drinks promotions should be banned


    Nooo no no no no!!!

    Not happy hour! (Although I don't know a pub locally that still does it!)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How about an alcohol ban in all public places?
    I would find it hilarious for all the non smokers moaning about public smoking, if drinking was banned in public places!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Surely it would be better to relax our laws so that we can take some of the taboo out of drinking and increase our ability to have a rational education of our children. This really isn't any different to the whole debate around "illegal" drugs too...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :yes:
    Surely it would be better to relax our laws so that we can take some of the taboo out of drinking and increase our ability to have a rational education of our children. This really isn't any different to the whole debate around "illegal" drugs too...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Surely it would be better to relax our laws so that we can take some of the taboo out of drinking and increase our ability to have a rational education of our children. This really isn't any different to the whole debate around "illegal" drugs too...

    I know, I find it bizarre that people are wanting stricter legislation in a country that already has the highest rates of drug abuse despite them being illegal.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know, I find it bizarre that people are wanting stricter legislation in a country that already has the highest rates of drug abuse despite them being illegal.

    Its the very same reason - I want illegal drugs under strict control and the only way to do that is to make them legally sold.

    The laws around alcohol are a farce, they dont in anyway control supply and the industry can actively encourage drinking - there are alcohol ad's before the watershed - how can you possibly say thats a good idea?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    Alcohol advertising should be banned

    All cheap drinks promotions should be banned

    All sports sponsorship should be stopped

    Just ban it outright. We obviously can't be trusted.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just ban it outright. We obviously can't be trusted.

    Do you want to respond reasonably to my proposals?

    Why do we allow advertising for alcohol before the watershed?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    Why do we allow advertising for alcohol before the watershed?

    Wouldn't limiting adverts til after the watershed just make it even more appealing to kids who, let's face it, all watch TV after the watershed (at least the ones that are likely to be drinking). I reckon Europe shows that the lesser the taboo surrounding it, the less young people want it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wouldn't limiting adverts til after the watershed just make it even more appealing to kids who, let's face it, all watch TV after the watershed (at least the ones that are likely to be drinking). I reckon Europe shows that the lesser the taboo surrounding it, the less young people want it.

    Surely the whole point of advertising is to sell more product, selling alcohol to those under age surely isnt a good way forward.

    Of course, and if we could import continental drinking paterns I'd be all for it, except we'd see a big rise in liver problems like the French.

    I'm not suggesting anything which would greatly impact on most drinkers.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's a curiously British thing, binge drinking. I've just spent 2 weeks in Barcelona, where there is a big bar/cafe culture, alcohol available everywhere and an age limit of 16 on drinking. However, there seems to be very little obvious public drunkeness. People drink, but the aggressive rowdiness is missing. It feels quite safe to be out and about late in the bars, more than it does in the UK. I do wonder why this is. :confused:

    People seem to have a more responsible attitude all round. The night we arrived at our apartment (a lovely little flat in Barceloneta, overlooking the beach), it was the midsummer celebration. People out in the bars and on the beach until the early morning, drinking and setting off fireworks. We saw no fights, no aggro, hardly any police. How come the Spanish appear to be able to behave like adults more than the British can?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    there are alcohol ad's before the watershed - how can you possibly say thats a good idea?

    Well, it's not a bad idea. I've probably met at least 500 people since I started drinking underage who also drank underage. You went out with your friends on a Friday night and drank because it was what was socially commonplace, not because you seen an advert for alcohol pre-watershed. If that was the case, we'd all be drinking John Smiths, Southern Comfort and Smirnoff, not Mad Dog 20/20, Buckfast and the cheapest cider we could find.

    Besides, the kids start drinking underage at what, 12 - 16? Since when did they stop watching TV at 9pm?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But why is binge drinking socially commonplace among young people? It doesn't happen in other European countries, mostly because they have a sensible attitude to alcohol- it's something that can be enjoyed, but it isn't adult or mature to go out and get ratted. Over here its the opposite, and I don't think advertising helps with that. Even though alcohol advertising is incredibly restricted, you still get the implicit message that drinking booze makes you more popular and more sexually attractive. Drinking a lot is still marketed as a social pastime.

    France prohibits the advertisement of alcohol to the extent that spraying champagne after a Grand Prix is not allowed, and they don't have the booze culture.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    France prohibits the advertisement of alcohol to the extent that spraying champagne after a Grand Prix is not allowed, and they don't have the booze culture.

    That's completely specious reasoning, though. The problem lies in what the common social attitudes are towards the subject in question. Take a look at illegal drugs. When was the last time you seen a TV advert glamourising ecstasy? Or heroin? Never, but they're still a major happening in the UK.

    I can't remember the last time I've seen a smoking brand advertised either. Still a problem with our youth taking it up? Completely.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think banning adverts would magically solve the problems, but I don't think it's a very good idea having adverts glamourising the consumption of alcohol on TV. It's common sense.

    A whole social and cultural shift would be needed, but that won't happen whilst you have the traditional whingers complaining that drink and druigs are always bad.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katchika wrote: »
    Ban cheap drinks? No way! Why should everyone be punished just because some people are irresponsible?

    Just drink at home like they do in Norway?

    It isn't the be all and end all. I've seen some pretty horriffic violent incidents involving booze. Tbh, if it were more expensive, it wouldn't bother me that much.

    Cheap beer isn't as important to me as being able to walk home at night safe without somebody starting on me.
  • SkiveSkive Posts: 15,282 Skive's The Limit
    If drink drive limits were lowered much more it would become nigh on impossible to out and a have a few beers on a weekday night and be legal to drive to work in the morning.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    It's a curiously British thing, binge drinking. I've just spent 2 weeks in Barcelona, where there is a big bar/cafe culture, alcohol available everywhere and an age limit of 16 on drinking. However, there seems to be very little obvious public drunkeness. People drink, but the aggressive rowdiness is missing. It feels quite safe to be out and about late in the bars, more than it does in the UK. I do wonder why this is. :confused:

    People seem to have a more responsible attitude all round. The night we arrived at our apartment (a lovely little flat in Barceloneta, overlooking the beach), it was the midsummer celebration. People out in the bars and on the beach until the early morning, drinking and setting off fireworks. We saw no fights, no aggro, hardly any police. How come the Spanish appear to be able to behave like adults more than the British can?
    I've always believed it to be a cultural thing. I know it might sound bizarre but I think it is because of the wider exposure to alcohol ingrained in Spanish life. Kids of my and most other generations grew up in bars, practically. Bars are found in every corner and popping it for a quick caña and a tapa is a quick and 'mundane' act, yet a great socialising custom practiced by most adults including old women coming back from the supermarket.

    In here alcohol has always been treated a lot more seriously and gravely, which when considering human nature is only going to make it more attractive and 'naughty' to consume to kids and adults alike.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    It's a curiously British thing, binge drinking.

    the nordic countries are pretty hot on binge drinking, despite having to pay around £8 for a beer.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    But why is binge drinking socially commonplace among young people? It doesn't happen in other European countries, mostly because they have a sensible attitude to alcohol- it's something that can be enjoyed, but it isn't adult or mature to go out and get ratted. Over here its the opposite, and I don't think advertising helps with that. Even though alcohol advertising is incredibly restricted, you still get the implicit message that drinking booze makes you more popular and more sexually attractive. Drinking a lot is still marketed as a social pastime.

    France prohibits the advertisement of alcohol to the extent that spraying champagne after a Grand Prix is not allowed, and they don't have the booze culture.

    where i live now(romford) people have been getting trashed for generations, was a programme on TV about it a few month. People have been doing narcotics for generations since the victorians... like anything though it gets relatively cheaper over time

    i'd blame the overstressed culture in this country, where people are expected to work stupid hours unproductively, so the little time they do get - they'd rather forget all about it and get trashed, i know i do subconsciously

    you can't expect people to have effective working days of 8-6 and continual 'reviews' without wanting to let off steam

    pity there's no olympic sport for drinking, actually there is: darts :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote: »
    the nordic countries are pretty hot on binge drinking, despite having to pay around £8 for a beer.

    Yup. We have all the same discussions in Iceland. Only, our alcohol is insanely expensive, only able to be bought from bars (even more expensive) or government alcohol stores, we don't allow advertisements either... and still we have problems with binge drinking.

    Although I'm not sure what legislation can do because this kind of thing seems cultural more than anything.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I found Jaloux and Kiezo's point really interesting. It's patently obvious that lots of kids are still smoking despite advertising being banned for a number of years, and the point that there's still a prolific use of drugs, which have never been advertised, only compounds the argument that a simple answer like "ban advertising" is an overly-simple and impotent solution to a much more complex issue.

    Jaloux's point that even in Iceland, where strict laws on where you alcohol and the price you can buy it at makes no difference either, demonstrates further the futility of tightening up laws.

    The issue seems to me to be more cultural. Perhaps the comparatively long hours we work in the UK pushes people to demand excessive escapism during their limited free time. I'd be interested to see if the binge drinking culture was disproportionately represented in a certain class also.

    Interesting topic this one! I hope we can learn from this thread and not have it descend into the usual insults and intellectual one-upmanship! :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The issue seems to me to be more cultural. Perhaps the comparatively long hours we work in the UK pushes people to demand excessive escapism during their limited free time.

    I'm quite convinced that this is one of the main causes (developed over years of longer work hours though). A lot of the other countries with similar problems, such as the USA, Canada, Australia, Poland, even Spain (where apparently it's rising), have a higher average number of hours worked than countries like France and Holland. I'd be interested to know what Iceland's working hours were like. I'd also be interested to know what the drinking habits of Japan and South Korea are (now that South Koreans work more hours than any other country).

    And does anyone else find the article a bit wierd, as if doctor's medical knowledge gives them some sort of authority on solutions to social problems?
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