Feminism

Former Member

Why are so many young women these days refusing to be called feminists? Especially if they believe in feminist values?

Why is feminism such a loaded word? When if we talk about other civil rights movements, people don't automatically assume that Martin Luther King was a white man hater, or that LGBT campaigners don't hate men?

Why is it that if you talk about feminism, people think of big burly hairy legged dykes burning their bra and emasculating men?

Former Member

Namaste wrote: »

Why is it that if you talk about feminism, people think of big burly hairy legged dykes burning their bra and emasculating men?

Isn't that what the anti-feminists went around saying feminists were, in order to stop people taking them seriously/wanting to be a feminist? It's difficult to change the meaning of a word to a more positive one (amelioration).

Former Member

Why are so many young women these days refusing to be called feminists? Especially if they believe in feminist values?

Out of the people I know who do this, they fear being tarred with the manhating-hairy-lesbian-fat brush. That brush has certainly done well in diverting away from the issues that feminists wish to address, and in silencing those who do believe in feminist values but don't wish to be associated with the term.

I read Ginsburg's article on the F word recently, addressing how this can be solved. Made for quite interesting reading.

Former Member

Namaste wrote: »

Why are so many young women these days refusing to be called feminists?

Germaine Greer.

Former Member

Namaste I can't believe you started this topic mere hours after briggi got rid of her computer and moved to Sweden!

Former Member

What she move to Sweden for?

Former Member

Her blokey got a job out there, and most of his family live out there too.

Sorry for the derailment

She posted a thread in Anything Goes yesterday.

Former Member

I didnt know she was gone

Former Member

As a matter of interest, how many of you know of die-hard feminists that are in their first and long-term stable marriage? All the one's I know seem to be on at least their second or third ... *Teagan wanders away to ponder this* :chin:

Former Member

As a matter of interest, how many of you know of die-hard feminists that are in their first and long-term stable marriage?

Going by family only (as none of my friends my age are married!) except for my mum (who is 11 years into her marriage with my step-dad - widowed in her first) all of the women in my family who are married have only been married once.

What do you mean by 'die-hard' feminists though? In my family, women want equality for other women.

Former Member

Teagan wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how many of you know of die-hard feminists that are in their first and long-term stable marriage? All the one's I know seem to be on at least their second or third ... *Teagan wanders away to ponder this* :chin:

I have no idea. Maybe being a feminist immediately means your husband will beat you and/or leave you?

I know a few feminists whove never been married, some whove been married more than once and some that are on their fist marriage.

Tbh I think its about the same as the rest of the population. Why do you think different?

Former Member

SuzyCreamcheese wrote: »

I have no idea. Maybe being a feminist immediately means your husband will beat you and/or leave you?

I know a few feminists whove never been married, some whove been married more than once and some that are on their fist marriage.

Tbh I think its about the same as the rest of the population. Why do you think different?

Well, it was only a ponder. But having said that, the ones I know have seemed to kinda struggle to maintain their relationships for whatever reason - perhaps their men have read their 'feminism' as agression.

Former Member

Or they're less prepared to go to work the same hours as their husband and then come home and be expected to do the majority of the housework? That they actually believe in equal responsibilities, and that does sometimes include getting the kids up and making their breakfasts, which their husbands object to?

I think people do treat feminism as a bad thing, to be seen as a feminist does class you with the bra burning brigade.

I believe in equal rights for men and women. This makes me a feminist.

Former Member

Or they're less prepared to go to work the same hours as their husband and then come home and be expected to do the majority of the housework? That they actually believe in equal responsibilities, and that does sometimes include getting the kids up and making their breakfasts, which their husbands object to?

:yes:

There's another forum that I glance at online (won't name it ) and it's amazing how many women have partners who refuse to do any form of housework/childcare even though they both work :eek:

I told my partner that once we can both afford it, we'll get a cleaner. Until then, things are split right down the middle. He's a dab hand at the ironing

Slightly OT but related to feminism, someone once told me that women won't really progress that much in the workplace (if they have children) until men who want to stay at home are respected for doing so.

Former Member

Sa-ra-ra-ra wrote: »

Or they're less prepared to go to work the same hours as their husband and then come home and be expected to do the majority of the housework? That they actually believe in equal responsibilities, and that does sometimes include getting the kids up and making their breakfasts, which their husbands object to?

I don't think that's what feminism is about. Domestic responsibilities is something that is agreed between two partners, it doesn't belong to wider socio-political issues pertaining to women's rights.

Former Member

Yerascrote wrote: »

I don't think that's what feminism is about. Domestic responsibilities is something that is agreed between two partners, it doesn't belong to wider socio-political issues pertaining to women's rights.

Why not?

Former Member

But it is related. In the domestic sphere housework is unpaid work, reproductive and often undervalued (look at how some people look down on stay at home mothers). Nowadays, a lot more women are working, yet are still expected to come home after paid work, and do the majority of the work in the household. It's the exception in my home, but I'd imagine it's still the exception rather than the norm.

Former Member

Blagsta wrote: »

Why not?

Because it assumes that domestic responsibilities are based soley on a male/female relationship. Domestic agreemants can be worked out between father/son, mother/daughter, gay couple/gay couple.

Former Member

Yerascrote wrote: »

Because it assumes that domestic responsibilities are based soley on a male/female relationship. Domestic agreemants can be worked out between father/son, mother/daughter, gay couple/gay couple.

It's still not seperate from the rest of life. Are you familiar with the concept of the "social factory"?

Former Member

Blagsta wrote: »

It's still not seperate from the rest of life. Are you familiar with the concept of the "social factory"?

No. Enlighten me.

Former Member

This won't be very good, it's friday afternoon and I'm going to Spain tomorrow

Basically it talks about how the reach of capital has extended beyond the work place into our domestic and social lives. Domestic duties support workers in being able to work for capital, our social lives are dominated by the forces of capital etc (look at how festivals have been transformed from an alternative culture into big business for example). etc etc, that's all, I'm going to Barcelona tomorrow ner ner

Former Member

Blagsta wrote: »

This won't be very good, it's friday afternoon and I'm going to Spain tomorrow

Lucky bugger! It's juts rain, rain, rain here for the next few weeks it seems!!! :mad: http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/5day.shtml?world=0042

Have a great time!

Former Member

Yerascrote wrote: »

I don't think that's what feminism is about. Domestic responsibilities is something that is agreed between two partners, it doesn't belong to wider socio-political issues pertaining to women's rights.

Surely it's entirely what feminism is about? The right to have equal responsibilities and recognition as men do? Feminism is about equality, and no form of equality will ever be reached when women are still expected to shoulder a far greater domestic burden than men do by social standards. Equality doesn't just apply to the workplace, it applies to responsibilities across the board.

Former Member

In the social factory the state more and more plans the utilization of our labour, always with the view toward the maximum profitability on the social level. When capital decides to cut inflation by creating more unemployment, the unemployed are functioning to expand capitalist profits. When capital needs women's labour power off the market, both their unwaged labour in the home and their 'unemployment' are productive to capital. When it is more profitable to capital to keep the elderly off the labour market, they are thrown into the junk heap of social security.

The working class, then, cannot be defined in terms of its productivity on the individual factory level, nor can it be defined according to whether or not it is waged labour. The productivity of the working class exists on the level of the social factory and the role of some of us in that factory may be to be unemployed.

Employed or not, we spend 24 hours a day working for capital in the social factory. Waged labourers spend their remaining hours 'after work' reproducing themselves to return to work. Eating, sleeping, drinking, movies, screwing are all essential work which we do in order to be prepared for the next day's labour. These same functions are perhaps even more essential for the 'unemployed' so they will not turn their violence against capital.

Women's labour is central to the social factory. Aside from providing a cheap labour force which can be returned to the home with relative ease, women bear the burden of bringing up the next generation of workers and feeding, clothing and comforting their men so they can return to another day's labour. They also have to manage the family budget in the face of inflation. All this is unwaged labour for capital.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/blackchip/social_factory.htm

Indrid Cold

go_away wrote: »

Slightly OT but related to feminism, someone once told me that women won't really progress that much in the workplace (if they have children) until men who want to stay at home are respected for doing so.

That one has got a point.

Former Member

Blagsta wrote: »

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/blackchip/social_factory.htm

Welcome my friend, welcome to the machine.

Former Member

Because feminism is (or should be) essentially the default position of any person in our society, unless they say otherwise, I think there is a tendency to refer to feminists as people who actually campaign to make sure things are equal, rather than just a set of beliefs. In the past feminism wasn't the default position, so there was more of a need to label yourself. Take racism for example. Is there a label for someone who believes in equal rights for black and white people? No, there's only a word for people who don't believe in equal rights for black and white people, because it's pretty much ingrained in our society that people shouldn't be treated differently because of the colour of their skin. And since the majority believe in feminist ideals, there is a tendency to not even bother labelling it any more. That's my theory anyway.

Former Member

That's a really good point IWS.

Former Member

I'm With Stupid wrote: »

Because feminism is (or should be) essentially the default position of any person in our society, unless they say otherwise, I think there is a tendency to refer to feminists as people who actually campaign to make sure things are equal, rather than just a set of beliefs. In the past feminism wasn't the default position, so there was more of a need to label yourself. Take racism for example. Is there a label for someone who believes in equal rights for black and white people? No, there's only a word for people who don't believe in equal rights for black and white people, because it's pretty much ingrained in our society that people shouldn't be treated differently because of the colour of their skin. And since the majority believe in feminist ideals, there is a tendency to not even bother labelling it any more. That's my theory anyway.

I disagree... I think the fact that people have such a negative attitude towards feminism just shows that a lot of people don't appreciate the importance of what it has achieved. I know a lot of people who don't treat women as equals, who can be patronising, who don't believe women should do certain jobs. One in four people still believe that if a woman wears revealing clothes, or is a bit flirty then she's partially responsible for being raped. I know people who believe that contraception should be entirely the woman's fault and if a man pressurises her to have sex without a condom, or takes advantage of her when she's drunk it's her fault because she's the one wo will get pregnant and thus it's her responsibility. Some people seem to deny the fact that it's the responsibility of men too in some places andrefuse to change many attitudes. There's a difference between believing that it is wrong to sexually harass a woman and believing women should have equal pay. It still seems ok to pinch a woman's bum and then when she gets upset, laugh at her and degrade her because hey! It's just a bit of fun for the lads and it's Ok to upset her for being a woman because it's funny.

How come a woman is often expected to take on gender roles, as if it is a pre-requisite to having a vagina, but if a man for example can cook, it becomes his 'craft' or 'skill'?

I'm also a believer in that until gender roles are diffused, until women 'butch' is not a negative thing to be and until men stop feminising each other for showing 'weak' personality traits, then feminism has not done its job. I mean it from a perspective that the diffusion of gender roles would benefit men too.

Former Member

Namaste wrote: »

I disagree... I think the fact that people have such a negative attitude towards feminism just shows that a lot of people don't appreciate the importance of what it has achieved. I know a lot of people who don't treat women as equals, who can be patronising, who don't believe women should do certain jobs. One in four people still believe that if a woman wears revealing clothes, or is a bit flirty then she's partially responsible for being raped. I know people who believe that contraception should be entirely the woman's fault and if a man pressurises her to have sex without a condom, or takes advantage of her when she's drunk it's her fault because she's the one wo will get pregnant and thus it's her responsibility. Some people seem to deny the fact that it's the responsibility of men too in some places andrefuse to change many attitudes. There's a difference between believing that it is wrong to sexually harass a woman and believing women should have equal pay. It still seems ok to pinch a woman's bum and then when she gets upset, laugh at her and degrade her because hey! It's just a bit of fun for the lads and it's Ok to upset her for being a woman because it's funny.

All pretty minority viewpoints in people our age ime (and I figure it's people our age you're referring to who aren't likely to call themselves feminists).

Former Member

I'm With Stupid wrote: »

All pretty minority viewpoints in people our age ime (and I figure it's people our age you're referring to who aren't likely to call themselves feminists).

Yes... But minority viewpoints? I doubt that.

It's just that they're considered 'normal'. How many men do you know who've pinched a woman's backside?