Home Politics & Debate
If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨

'Rape' victim so fat she should be glad of the attention

2

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Perhaps we should make those convicted of rape, and other such scum, pay back every penny they took from the state in legal aid. I doubt taxpayers would want their money spent on keeping filth on the streets, after all.

    you seem to think that rape is some sort of magical act which can't be treated like other crimes. Rapists are criminals, they are therefore treated like criminals. You can't just go around making special rules in the legal system to deprive them of their rights simply because you view their crime to be worse than others.

    while your at it why not make people arrested for shoplifting pay back their legal aid, or people caught with weed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    briggi wrote: »
    The issue is that an officer of the court/law implying that women who are overweight (and slaves to fashion if her comments re: provactive dressing are to be taken into account) trends are somehow deserving of rape or sexual assault is outrageous. She should be ashamed of herself.

    Being overweight is an adequate excuse to defend a rapist. Well, I never...

    I think that the assertion is that "rape" didn't take place at all.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Erm... why?

    An accusation of rape is damaging enough these days. To throw out the defence procedure so that if you call someone a rapist they must be (if they cannot defend themselves in court) is ridiculous.

    But like others have said, what she actually said was:

    "She was 12st 6lb – not quite the swan she may turn into. She may well have been glad of the attention. It is all too unrealistic that sexual encounters between boys and girls who have never met before must be against the girls' will. They are learning to be sexually attractive, perhaps before their time."

    I assume therefore she's making a case for the sex being consensual. But it is a low blow to say that the girl was more likely to consent because she was overweight. Complete conjecture that should be thrown out. From the people I've known in my life, people with less self esteem are less likely to want any kind of sexual relations with others.

    Like someone said, it takes away the dignity of the victim needlessly, probably more than anything to manipulate her so when she's examined she can be played to make it look like she consented. Having this kind of thing said about you in a court of law at the age of 16 must be permanently damaging to yourself, I hope the lady lawyer does trip and break her nose on some granite steps :)
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    ...so every public defender ever? It's part of the legal system that defendants get legal aid even if they're clearly guilty, it's meant as a way to prevent tyranny. Defense attorneys play a vital part of the legal system by filling that role.
    Fair enough if they're just trying to prevent the other side from giving them more punishment than they deserve, but other than that yes. You have to be evil yourself to try to prove that someone you know to be guilty is innocent. I consider it to be helping them to continue their crime.
    If a thief or killer or anything goes free because of their defence, and their attorney knew that the person was a thief/killer/anything, then the attorney is almost as much guilty of their next crimes (and possibly the ones before) as the one who committed them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    They are not always necissairly saying that they are innocent, they are trying to convince that the crime cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Guilt or innocence is not always in debate. Times, depending on the case, a lawyer will steer away from even hearing whether the client is guilty or innocent, as though attourney/client privdigles exist, certian information relevent to the case, incriminating or not is technically supposed to be known by both sides. With the exception of public defenders, defence lawyers, if good, are most often extremly highly paid. And I refuse to believe that money does not play a major factor in most people's career choices. It does/can take a large toll on them. For an example, a friend of my father who was a defence lawyer resigned shortly after 50 as it was extremly taxing with the knowledge of putting criminals back on the street, especially as he had children, but it did work worth his while financially. X amount of thousands of dollars up front more often given straight in cash. As rage has said, defence lawyers are an extremly important player in the justice system. Without them justice would be extemly impaired. Sure, it may seem discusting with the thoughts of who they can put back on the street, but think of what life would be like if they weren't around. A country where suspects were never defendents but automatically criminals and punished accordingly. Think of the innocent lives that may be taken away because of a false accusation, think of the lack of human, civil rights and liberties that would be stripped away if one was not allowed to defend themselves on matters. There are a few of them out there, should try it for a month. Are defence lawyers worse than living in a place where you could be treated like that? But thats neither here nor there in my case and my jibberish rant shall quit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fair enough if they're just trying to prevent the other side from giving them more punishment than they deserve, but other than that yes. You have to be evil yourself to try to prove that someone you know to be guilty is innocent. I consider it to be helping them to continue their crime.
    If a thief or killer or anything goes free because of their defence, and their attorney knew that the person was a thief/killer/anything, then the attorney is almost as much guilty of their next crimes (and possibly the ones before) as the one who committed them.

    But that really only happens in the movies. Criminals don't get away with their crimes because there defense somehow falsely proved their innocence, they get off on some sort of technicality. Honestly I can't claim to have very intimate knowledge of the UK's legal system but in the states attorneys take an oath the provide the best representation possible, sometimes that means pointing out a technicality. I'm not saying that it's easy for them to do this, but they are upholding a swore duty.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm actually curious to know how the defending lawyer knew the complainants weight? It just seems so irrelavent.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fair enough if they're just trying to prevent the other side from giving them more punishment than they deserve, but other than that yes. You have to be evil yourself to try to prove that someone you know to be guilty is innocent. I consider it to be helping them to continue their crime.
    If a thief or killer or anything goes free because of their defence, and their attorney knew that the person was a thief/killer/anything, then the attorney is almost as much guilty of their next crimes (and possibly the ones before) as the one who committed them.

    Anybody in the legal profession has a legal obligation if they know the person is guilty i.e. through confession then they can't pretend they didn't hear it. Sometimes you get 'sting' operations on solicitors to catch them out and then they are struck off the register. I think anyway :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Anybody in the legal profession has a legal obligation if they know the person is guilty i.e. through confession then they can't pretend they didn't hear it. Sometimes you get 'sting' operations on solicitors to catch them out and then they are struck off the register. I think anyway :)

    I said this earlier, solicitors aren't allowed to plead not guilty for a client who has admitted that they are guilty. Only dodgy lawyers would take the risk.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think that people with low self esteem are more likely to partake in potentially damaging behaviour. I've certainly seen this confirmed in my own friends. Therefore, the overweight comment is justified when arguing that the sex was consensual.

    So you think that overweight women have low self-esteem then?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So, how is the overweight comment justifiable then?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, unless the lawer has other reason to suspect the girl had low self-esteem due to her weight, I don't see that it's justifiable to make the arguement that the girl was overweight and therefore had low self-esteem. The story doesn't give enough detail to know, but the comment and presumption doesn't sit comfortably with me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    So, how is the overweight comment justifiable then?

    for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17506879&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
    body dissatisfaction was related to low self-esteem and depression, perceived overweight was related only to low self-esteem but actual overweight was not related to low self-esteem and depression in adolescents.

    below is one of many published papers on the effects of weight and self esteem
    ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: The purpose of this study was to determine the prevalence of overweight and obesity and to examine the effects of actual weight status, perceived weight status and body satisfaction on self-esteem and depression in a high school population in Turkey. METHODS: A cross-sectional survey of 2101 tenth-grade Turkish adolescents aged 15-18 was conducted. Body mass index (BMI) was calculated using weight and height measures. The overweight and obesity were based on the age- and gender-spesific BMI cut-off points of the International Obesity Task Force values. Self-esteem was measured using the Rosenberg Self-Esteem Scale, and depression was measured using Children's Depression Inventory. Logistic regression analysis was used to examine relationships among the variables. RESULTS: Based on BMI cut-off points, 9.0% of the students were overweight and 1.1% were obese. Logistic regression analysis indicated that (1) being male and being from a higher socio-economical level were important in the prediction of overweight based on BMI; (2) being female and being from a higher socio-economical level were important in the prediction of perceived overweight; (3) being female was important in the prediction of body dissatisfaction; (4) body dissatisfaction was related to low self-esteem and depression, perceived overweight was related only to low self-esteem but actual overweight was not related to low self-esteem and depression in adolescents. CONCLUSION: The results of this study suggest that school-based adolescents in urban Turkey have a lower risk of overweight and obesity than adolescents in developed countries. The findings of this study suggest that psychological well-being of adolescents is more related to body satisfaction than actual and perceived weight status is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    By all means lobby to change procedure on what is and isn't acceptable and prevent this type of questioning in the future, but that isn't really the issue.

    I think the fact she's a possible rape victim though, and the fact that shes young, and the fact that in court the argument isn't that likely to do much more other than unsettle the victim, it just doesn't seem morally / ethically right. I think if there is an issue, that is it. As a professional there should be a responsibility - if someone may be a victim of a horrid crime then badgering them, making them cry, in order to try to discredit them (cheap tactics, essentially) is really quite off.

    I'm not a lawyer or a solicitor though, just giving my perspective. It just doesn't seem very professional.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Without sitting through the entire trial its hard to say the context it which it was used... I tend to think it unlikely the barrister picked it out of thin air and actually for all we know it may be the truth (ie she was overweight, she had low self-esteem and went with several lads who showed her a bot of attention). Its the lawyer's job to give her clients the best possible defence.

    If you feel that rape convictions are too low (and at 6% its hard to argue anything else) surely what we should be looking at is not reducing the rights of the defandants or lawyers in providing the best defence, but improving how CPS and the police work (eg moving towards specialist rape teams).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Though it's worth noting that what's already been mentioned is that the girl with her, whose weight hasn't been mentioned, was forced to lie naked, face down in a park during the various acts and that at least some of the defendants, when questioned, claimed to have never had sex with the girl, until evidence forced a change in the story.

    There also seems to be evidence, based on the story that the lads had stolen the girls phone and she was trying to recover it.

    So all of that again doesn't make the case certain, but does suggest a very different sequence of events compared to what seems to be being discussed (fat girl with low self esteem has sex with some men who showed her attention)

    Of course I also don't see how any of this suggests that we should get rid of the legal basis of our entire country - all people deserve a defence regardless of income.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Also seems odd due to her self-esteem one overweight 16 year old convinces a non-overweight 16 year old friend to go with her to a park and have sex in public with 3 13 year old strangers...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    Also seems odd due to her self-esteem one overweight 16 year old convinces a non-overweight 16 year old friend to go with her to a park and have sex in public with 3 13 year old strangers...

    Yea, was kind of aprt of my point (in a way) that more than anything the argument seems manufactured to try to unsettle the victim. Have you seen the film A Few Good Men? I know it's only a film - but basically the guy has no evidence and so just barrages the guy until he confesses. But he got warned by his fellows if it didn't work he would have got arrested for dishonourable conduct, because the guy he was accusing was a colonel or a general or something.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Mr Orange wrote: »
    Glad you've become judge and jury by reading a quote...

    If they "get off" then surely they've been judged as to having not committed rape, and are innocent?
    Point taken, although the inference of that defence is that whatever happened can't be justified by any other means.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because that is what the lawyer is arguing. Whether the lawyer thinks that overweight people actually do have low self esteem or not I don't know, you'll have to ask her. Perhaps the girl did have low self esteem - that doesn't mean she wasn't raped but it does tie in with this particular argument.
    And you wonder why I, and so many others, despise lawyers?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sure if you were in need of one, maybe accused of a crime you didn't even commit you'd soon need a lawyer and you'd expect them to put across your case, just as they do for others who need them. Lawyers are just people doing a job and are needed by many people, innocent and guilty.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can't stand defence solicitors for this very reason. Instead of trying to prove innocence they argue technicalities and against character.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The legal system does seem very flawed, unfortunately I dont really debate much so please be gentle with me. I think the legal team are under obligation to do as much as possible to ensure a not guilty verdict when dealing with a client that has not confessed, if this means using technicallity then they will. If they didn't would it then be possible the verdict would be appealed and we would pay more money for a further trial ?

    It seems we are all unhappy at the comment made about the girl wanting attention because she was overweight, however I too know friends that have taken part in degrading activities and been humiliated by men because of low self esteem. I'm not saying that it was the case here because there are other elements that lead us all to believe this was likely to not be true.

    It is a shame that comments like this are ever made but defense and prosecution will always try to explain a little about the supposed mental state and character of the victim and defendant as it adds background for people who have little experience of those in the same situation.

    Personally I do hope that should I ever be wrongly accused of something that my defense would go to any lengths to ensure I walked free, which I'm sure as a matter of course they do for all their clients.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    my_name wrote: »
    A country where suspects were never defendents but automatically criminals and punished accordingly. Think of the innocent lives that may be taken away because of a false accusation, think of the lack of human, civil rights and liberties that would be stripped away if one was not allowed to defend themselves on matters.
    This has nothing to do with what I said. Just because someone is a suspect doesn't mean they're guilty and I never implied this. But when a lawyer believes that his/her client is guilty, then this specific lawyer would be just as guilty of the client's crime if they defended the suspect.
    Pay better attention to what I say next time...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    hobbs wrote: »
    for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17506879&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum



    below is one of many published papers on the effects of weight and self esteem

    So you agree with me that the person's weight isn't relevant to their self-esteem, rather the satisfaction level with their weight/shape.
Sign In or Register to comment.