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This is the point you're not understanding.
UNTIL WE LIVE IS YOUR IDEA OF A UTOPIA, THIS ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.
So instead of bleating on about how women are equal and shouldn't be raped (any sane-minded person ALREADY fucking knows this) how about we have something to prevent rape IN THE MEAN TIME?
It's not perfect, noones saying it is. But if it works, then it works. The inventor should be fucking applauded for pulling her finger out her arse and doing something instead repeating rhetoric about rape shouldn't occur. We all know it shouldn't, but the bottom line is...it does.
Of course it's simplistic. But so is the way you're looking at it. And if people are being brought up in a society where rape is seen as acceptable then of course they're going to become rapists themselves. I'm not disputing any of this. But rape isn't going to be erradicated over night, so until it is, do we just do nothing?
I didn't say that it would be erradicated over night did I?
Any program takes years to implement and a lot of money, unless of course you think that it is pointless for any NGO to operate, or for any educational program or charity to even exist because they'll never erradicate a problem overnight. :rolleyes:
It's important, it's absolutely necessary to do all of this but it is too little, too late in my view. Rapists need to be dealt more than one blow, it has to be at least a two-pronged attack. I am all for the education of those whose previous generations may have thought forcing yourself on a woman was alright, or those who are just not right in the head -- but if it came to a choice between protecting the well-being of their penis and the well-being of their potential victim then it's a doozy.
The difference between our understanding of the situation and the woman who is behind the Rapex device's understanding of the situation, is that she - Sonette Ehlers - has lived in a society where there are 50,000 reported rapes a year and 1 in 9 people are HIV+. When you put those statistics together - whether you buy stats or not - they are as dangerous and terrifying as it gets. I can completely understand how she came up with this idea, and why she is so keen for it to be available to the women of South Africa. I believe it is actually going to be very inexpensive, and while women shouldn't have to shell out to protect themselves from rape I'm sure many will be willing to. I would. They're giving them out free at the moment through various avenues of distribution.
As I said before it's not an ideal solution; I am the last person who wishes to see rape victims being empowered by the use of steel barbs on a condom. But in a situation which is indeed fully about power then any ammunition we can give to the potential victim is a step in the right direction. Any way in which South African women can be given confidence to step outside their houses without the fear of being raped is a good, justifiable way.
The buck stops with the South African government, and the rapists who commit these attacks. I hate the idea of a woman with a bear trap between her legs but I would be nothing but supportive to any such woman. Having read an interview with Ehlers her basic message is that women should not be victimised by crimes of power. Having read her responses to various criticism (most of which has been independently mentioned in this thread) such as that the device is barbaric and will probably enrage the rapist even further and that rather than inventing medieval chastity belts she should be investing her time and energy in rape education... well, Ehlers DOES NOT believe it's her job to educate rapists. She's damn right. Why should she - as a woman and potential (or maybe past) victim of this crime - devote herself to educating men rather than protecting the victims? As someone who has been through it myself I would absolutely balk at the idea that the only way to prevent myself or my daughters or my next door neighbour's girlfriend from being raped is to help educate men. That is absolutely necessary, but as I said it isn't going to solve this problem as a stand alone. Pain is a good deterrent. It's not going to kill anyone. What Ehlers DOES believe is her job is to provide a (not the) solution to the problem that nobody wants to talk about, let alone fix. As a woman living in a society where she must hear of numerous rapes every day, she wants physical and lawful consequences for men who harm women. Men who sometimes seem to be of the belief that rape is something they can get away with.
It may seem barbaric and medieval to arm your vagina with metal spikes but it isn't anything near as barbaric as raping someone. If men object so strongly to having their penis grated then the solution for them is not force themselves on women. Seems pretty straightforward to me, they have the choice in this matter, their victim only has the choice to protect herself to the very best of her ability.
South African rapists will be aware that this device is on the market and that is fair enough warning for them - if not too much warning. Having your penis lanced with metal spikes would be a walk in the park for a rapist compared with what I think they deserve.
I think you've missed the point.
This isn't going to be effective against stopping rape.
Educating people and focusing on the potential rapists will have a significant effect. Just look at different coutnries with different attitudes to women.
Yep, I'm against charities. Wash your hands first next time before putting words in my mouth.
To go by your charities example, they're doing something about it now, and also for the long term. If Oxfam's MO was to say "Yeah, let's stop world hunger! We hope to achieve this in 2045. Until then, we'll do fuck all but moan about other people trying to help out in the meantime." then you may have a point.
But you don't.
Yeah, even if it'd be one huge and lengthy process...
Some good is better than no good. Look at how Amnesty International started and look at how much good it has done. Amnesty has not erradicated torture, but it has done something.
As I said already, I know this. I'm not saying that this product will stop rape altogether.
As far as I'm aware, there's not another product out there like this. If it even stops one rape, then to me it's worth it being out on the market.
I'm not having a go for folk for saying education is the way to end all this shite, I know it is. But until
that happens, what should we do? Should we not even consider ideas that can be used as stop gaps?
EXACTLY. That's been my whole point all along! (totally made up figures, but just go along) 2000 women raped with no RapeX available to buy. With the RapeX available to buy, 1800 women were raped.
Do those 200 women not justify it being made available?
I'm not being aggresive, I just come accross that way
Forgive me for guessing, but I'd say it would be more likely to be 2000 women raped with rapex not available, and 2000 raped with rapex available. There are so many variable situations when rape can occur.
And Briggi - all very well arguing that the rights of the victim are greater than that of the man, but again I think it is medieval and akin to corporal punishment which I don't think works, and as I've said to r&s I cant see it preventing rape at all.
Imagine a woman being attacked who then slaps her attacker across the face. Yea, of course he deserved it, but as SCC said it just makes it more likely he'll get more violent.
Really, if you wanted to argue for anything, then argue for women having a pistol they can use to shoot the man dead. At least then she will be safe. But I think in the UK at least we've come a long way from the fear epidemic where everyone feels they have to defend themselves.
A utopia is never going to exist, as r&s says, but I don't think we can have 'short term stop gaps'. You either move towards a society of trust and respect where people don't want to do this kind of thing, or to one of fear and mistrust where women will see every man as a potential rapist.
Surely the condom would catch any blood and such, much like a normal condom would catch sperm?
But how exactly does that differ from what is taught at the moment? Maybe you feel it isn;t emphasized enough? Perhaps thats true. In fact, I think an excellent idea would be to show boys videos of rape victims talking about how the experience has affected them, that would probably have an impact on the boderline cases. But I think its pretty naive to think that thats going to make even a slight impact on the instance of rape, unless its a daily or weekly hour where boys/men are subjected to a compulsory bombardment of this kind of thing, in which case it might make some difference. But if we're going to do that, why not do it for all other manner of heinous crimes? Bombard everyone with images of murder victims and the victim's families testimonies every day. Do the same for drugs, assault, etc. Then maybe more political things, like third world suffering, torture under brutal regimes, etc. Its a pretty grim vision.
Let me ask this question to cut through all of the practical objections to this particular product: what if there were a device that could be implanted in women (and men for that matter) that would administer a massive electric shock or dose of sedatives to a rapist if the victim triggered it? Is that a morally/practically objectionable solution? Would it not go a long way to a complete resolution of the problem (excepting absolute nutcases who have no control over themselves)?
Looking at it in layman's terms - rapist becomes temporarily incapacitated, has to go to hospital to have device removed, the case is investigated. It seems like it absolutely will change the dynamic of many rape situations to me - and not necessarily in that it will make the rapist more violent or increase the likelihood of the victim being more violently attacked/killed. Especially if - as is the aim of the Rapex device - it is going to hurt like hell and hopefully be a damn good lesson as well as a deterrent. I think that is a big leap in logic, though of course I can't say it won't be the case. I don't know. It seems like the best suggestion I've heard, anyway, not that that's saying much.
I don't see why there is the huge rush to write it off before it has even been tried out. I can't say any other revolutionary ways to stop the huge numbers of rapes committed have come to my attention.
Its mere existence may not deter rapists, though I personally do think it will work in some cases. Working in some cases is better than nothing working in no cases, as I see it. I definitely think it will act as more of a deterrent than... nothing. It will have a better effect than no change. No increase in education (or has there been some committment to making these changes by the SA government that I have missed?).
Having a product like this on the market doesn't lead to a society of complete mistrust. It acts as a safeguard to women who feel unsafe at a particular time, or with a particular person. Not all the time, and not with every person. It, in theory, of course, aids to protect her from the people she needs protecting from - that doesn't automatically mean she needs protecting from every man she comes across.
I mean women's self defence classes are designed to teach women how to incapacitate a typically male attacker. It gives women more confidence, etc. etc.
But in the real world unless you've practiced a lot and are pretty nifty in most situations it will just enrage the attacker. I'm a firm believer that the best step is to make sure you don't get in a position where it could happen, and I believe if there was a real effort on behalf of police and women going out, that many of the cases could be reduced.
Giving women a 'last ditch' defence I'm not sure will work. I mean, I look at it and think ouch that's going to hurt, but still I can't imagine a rapist getting that caught on him and just running off, especially if he has the advantage of size, weight and strength, the woman is vulnerable, I can see in a lot of situations he's just going to take it out on her.
You're right that the two aren't mutually exclusive, but I think a lot can be said for thinking first - where is this going to happen and how can we stop it happening before the rapist has seen his victim - rather than 'arming' women in one way. Because if you want to do that, like I said, a gun is much more justifiable. You can make sure there will be no retribution, it's easy to use and effective, you can stop other types of violent attack and rape that this device wouldn't work against, etc. etc.
Think about it though. The LAST thing he thinks is going to happen would be a condom inside the woman with loads of little barbs that get stuck in his cock. He would NEVER see it coming. The shock, and pain, would then surely give the woman enough time to kick or punch him the bollocks and then fucking bolt.
Spose the attacker is of the violent kind and he gets his cock stabbed by these barbs and turns in to a total nutter and decided to beat her shitless, not gonna do much then.
I'm not convinced it's going to be 100% success either, but it's better than nothing. If it even just gives the woman a chance to stop the rape from happening then it's worth it. The manufacturers claim that it is more painful than a kick in the balls, so it's obviously going to stall the man, giving the woman a chance to escape. Of course, this won't mean that every girl escapes, but it means that some might, which is good enough in my book. I'm in no way saying that this invention is the best thing since sliced bread, and it isn't fool proof by any means, but it's a damn sight lot more than we have now, and something is always better than nothing.
But until this is possible, if it is even possible, as unfortunately rapists don't walk around with a sign on their head, the RapeX seems like a good temporary solution.
Would you have one [virtually] permanently inside you? If not, when would you use it?
I was thinking that too. Nights out maybe? But then you could wear one at the weekend when you're out, and then get raped on the monday on your way home from work while not wearing one. But then it's not entirely feasible wearing one all the time.
I don't actually have a vagina, so this is all guesswork, mind.
right, personally no. I can't even stand tampons most of the time. If I lived in a country where the rape statistics were skewed differently, where less of the attacks were from known males or lovers, that's where I can see it as being more effective. I think we are all, myself included, looking at this device nd it's place in the uk market, whereas, it was brought out in South Africa where I'm guessing that (from the little, v.little I know) things are different.