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Broad opinions on Drug Law reform

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
BBC Have your say

These are the most popular/recommended comments from the 'Have Your Say' page on the Beeb, on the question 'How can we stop young people taking drugs?'

It's been mentioned on this board more than a few times (by me :) ) that any change in drug laws is going to be hampered by politicians being seen to be 'soft on drugs'. I wonder though if we could start to see sympathy expressed for more progressive methods, particularly if negative stories around enforcement based policies continue to appear.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It has nothing to do with public opinion at all and everything to do with voters in 'key marginals' they are the only people people in power care about. The rest of us effectively have no voice or vote.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Added: Wednesday, 18 April, 2007, 08:41 GMT 09:41 UK

    Legalisation of drugs seems to me to be the best option. It will have numerous benefits:
    - remove the attraction of law-breaking
    - remove a source of income for criminals
    - free up police
    - provide Mr Brown with a new source of tax revenue
    - allow for quality control to improve safety
    - allow for better (more honest) education in schools about the potential risks - as opposed to pupils seeing all info from teachers as being propaganda as they currently do
    - upset the Daily Mail readers

    [Londonerabroad]

    Recommended by 110 people

    :lol:

    spot on.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I like it. But I doubt it will happen anytime soon. The tabloids have WAY too much power.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well as I've stated plenty of times before, I have to agree with non-bong-Budda on this one. However I also think that policy integration would be a huge issue, particularly where services are not up to scratch and/or overstretched at present.

    For example, if Cannabis were to be legalised it would have to be done in tandem with some truely heroic education and health initiatives, perhaps in the same way we've tackled smoking over the past 15-20 years. Personally I believe that after an initial glut of presenting mental health problems, Cannabis use would actually decrease in terms of number of users and quantity consumed, in the the long term.

    The problem is that, at the moment, Mental Health services in this country simply could not take the initial strain of such a widespread and co-ordinated policy shift.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    They are taking the strain now, the law is absolutely no deterant, so I dont see why there would be a spike in use, especially in those who are most at risk.

    Yes, some old stonners might think 'I've have the occasional bifta now its legal' but a kid with serious mental health concerns who is self medicating isnt going to use more or less just because he can get it over the counter.

    Cannabis could (if we didnt have legal problems with doing so) be easily legalised tomorrow and there really would be very little impact on use or harm.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It wasn't a spike in use I was necessarily thinking about, rather it was a raising of awareness of available services to deal with people with Cannabis related mental health issues. This would be due to the amount of people who are experiencing mental health problems who are not accessing services, but also for those who may take legalisation initially as a sign that the substance was perfectly safe for unlimited consumption.

    This would not be a particularly large group, and the bulk of new service users would, I believe, be those with existing mental health problems who would come to access services that would need to be bolstered in tandem with any change in law.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But surely more people seeking help for mental illness is a good thing, yes there will have to be an increase in funding, but selling cannabis seems to keep dealers in business, so I fail to see how the government could sell it at a loss.

    And I really dont see there being a spike in use, it is almost totally accepted behaviour amoung the young now, for the vunerable users the law is no deterant.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    1) Its not just about funding, its resources and effective management of existing care systems. One of the problems at the moment is that, partly because mental healthcare is such a holistic area, that infrastucture and access to those who are most vulnerable is the problem. This is not something that can be solved by simply expanding and increasing funding for existing services.

    2) As I have stated previously I don't think a spike in use will be massive, but it would happen. This is because of a small group who initially might be interested in this previously banned substance, but also because greater availability and market economics could drive down prices and allow more to be purchased more often. Also this brings in a commericialisation issue, wherein social and entertainment businesses might include Cannabis use as a central plank (cafes, bars etc.).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    1) Of course, there has been many many years of under funding and mismanagement of mental health services, you only have to look at the big improvements the rest of the NHS has made since 97 compared to mental health - it doesnt get the same attention.

    2) I dont think that need happen if it was managed effectively, no one wants to see loads of advertising, product placement and so on. And there is no reason why the legal supply needs to be below the lower end of the market rate at the moment. Just because we are making a massive mess of legally supplying alcohol doesnt mean we must make a big mess of legally supplying cannabis and other intoxicants.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is an opinion and only that. "Softer" drugs, I have no problem with, i've never used them but i've never come across anyone causing problems either. Hard drugs though, like heroin and crystal meth should never be legalised, they cause too many problems, either indirectly through crime e.t.c. or directly through the fact they ravage your body.

    On a side-note, i'm not too fond of alcohol either, don't mind drinking it but I have to deal with so much shit at work caused by alcohol, the quicker they ban it's consumption in public, or raise the drinking age to 21 the better.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Heroin should be on prescription, it definitely shouldnt be sold over the counter, like MDMA or cannabis. Evidence from the Dutch and the Swiss show that by prescribing heroin to addicts you drastically reduce the amount of crime and associated diseases.

    As for alcohol, I'd like to see higher taxes, a ban on lots of the promotions, a ban on all advertising, and state run off licences. But that unfortunately will never happen.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think one of the problems is, in fact, cultural. Alcohol intoxication has been a major part of the lives of many in this country for centuries, but for evidence of such excesses under modern industrial capitalism you can go back to The Gin Epidemic of 1720-51
    The Gin epidemic is a time from 1720-1751 when the distilling of gin gained national prominence. As a result of a surplus of corn and a hope to cultivate a national identity, Parliament took certain measures to ensure gin's popularity. However, in so doing, they guaranteed Britain of the many problems that come with the consumption of alcohol.
    From this page, hosted by the University of Iowa, USA

    The culture of throwing oneself into an 'oblivion' of any intoxicating substance has been with us through the most important stages of our national history and is intrinsically bound up with many areas of British Civil life.

    It would be interesting to hear thoughts on how people think this might be overcome, challenged or addressed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    'Gin' (which was in reality just raw alcohol flavoured with fruit and other bits) was pretty much the first big drug epidemic, the terms used for its use and abuse were very similar to those used for crack.

    As for how we change this culture of intoxication, education, restriction of cheap supply and doing things to stop people thinking they need to get totally out of it. The latter of course being a very complicated set of social and economical factors.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    As for alcohol, I'd like to see higher taxes, a ban on lots of the promotions, a ban on all advertising, and state run off licences. But that unfortunately will never happen.

    Oh! that's interesting, don't think I've heard that opinion before.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and i hope that you'll hear it even more and with increasing frequency, its a good idea.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    As for alcohol, I'd like to see higher taxes, a ban on lots of the promotions, a ban on all advertising, and state run off licences. But that unfortunately will never happen.

    :no: Why should I have to pay more for alcohol. Isn't an increase in tax on alcohol just going to force more people to bootleg from France etc ? We already pay far too much tax on our alcohol in this country.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »
    :no: Why should I have to pay more for alcohol. Isn't an increase in tax on alcohol just going to force more people to bootleg from France etc ? We already pay far too much tax on our alcohol in this country.

    Actually no, you dont. Statistically speaking alcohol is cheaper now than its been for many years.

    Yes, of course bootlegging is an issue, but alcohol is a lot harder to do on a commercial scale (unlike tobacco) so I think taxes could rise a bit without a big increase in people going to France.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    Oh! that's interesting, don't think I've heard that opinion before.

    In my opinion we need to look at all of the intoxicants, not just legalise the illegal ones. We are making a mess of alcohol and tobacco which we should sort out at the same time.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »
    :no: Why should I have to pay more for alcohol. Isn't an increase in tax on alcohol just going to force more people to bootleg from France etc ?

    I already get my sister's French boyfriend to bring me cases of 20 Leffe beer everytime he comes over. He picks up for something ridiculous like €8. If I buy it here it's at least £1.50 a bottle! We get truly ripped off.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually no, you dont. Statistically speaking alcohol is cheaper now than its been for many years.

    Yes, of course bootlegging is an issue, but alcohol is a lot harder to do on a commercial scale (unlike tobacco) so I think taxes could rise a bit without a big increase in people going to France.

    But the past price of alcohol doesnt interest me. Im intrested in the price today and the likely price tomorrow. You right about it being harder to smuggle alcohol on a commercial scale, however an increase in alcohol tax will tempt individuals to travel to France to stock up on drinks for their own personal consumption.

    Why do you want to see an increase in alcohol tax ? Is it to combat binge drinking :confused:
    Addict wrote: »
    I already get my sister's French boyfriend to bring me cases of 20 Leffe beer everytime he comes over. He picks up for something ridiculous like €8. If I buy it here it's at least £1.50 a bottle! We get truly ripped off.

    Oh i really like Leffe it's has a real nice sweetness to it and its quite strong :D

    This just proves how much we pay in taxes to start with. Any further increase in alcohol taxation is just going to push more people to bring it in from the continent.

    Be good to live in Kent or near Dover, then I could just pop over to France and stock up and cheap drink and fags :thumb:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Addict wrote: »
    I already get my sister's French boyfriend to bring me cases of 20 Leffe beer everytime he comes over. He picks up for something ridiculous like €8. If I buy it here it's at least £1.50 a bottle! We get truly ripped off.

    Not really, yes alcohol is cheaper in France, but we have lower taxes on other items, we are a lower taxing country than France over all. And anyway, on high end items like that its largely profit, not tax making it expensive.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »
    Why do you want to see an increase in alcohol tax ? Is it to combat binge drinking :confused:

    On a very basic level, yes. Though its more the long term high levels of drinking which I would like to reduce, we will see an increase in alcoholics otherwise (especially women).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    On a very basic level, yes. Though its more the long term high levels of drinking which I would like to reduce, we will see an increase in alcoholics otherwise (especially women).

    I'm not sure if higher taxation would stop or reduce binge drinking.
    I think its more to do with our culture.

    Not sure how you can reduce the long term high levels of drinking though. I certainly think it is more harmful than some illegal drugs. I think education is the most useful weapon in trying to reduce the levels of heavy drinkers.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »
    I'm not sure if higher taxation would stop or reduce binge drinking.
    I think its more to do with our culture.

    Not sure how you can reduce the long term high levels of drinking though. I certainly think it is more harmful than some illegal drugs. I think education is the most useful weapon in trying to reduce the levels of heavy drinkers.

    It is in our culture - but when you can buy three massive bottles of Lambrinni for about 5p it doesnt really help.

    You're right though education has a big role to play. That and I think a ban on advertising would really help too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    It is in our culture - but when you can buy three massive bottles of Lambrinni for about 5p it doesnt really help.

    I have to agree with you there :yes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »
    I have to agree with you there :yes:

    So with that in mind, perhaps we could have a tax not done per pint, but done on how much alcohol there is in the pack/bottle, that would be a fairer way of doing it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My only objection is even people who drank one bottle of wine a week with their meal in their own home would be forced to pay more for their bottle. Or they guy who wants a cheeky pint after work.

    It is the same for cigarette duty for me. I don't think taxation on cigarettes has anything to do with reducing demand but raising revenue. I see alcohol and tobacco taxation as an easy way for any government to raise money. (call me cynical)

    I do take your point that having special offers like (2 bottle of Lambrini for 50p etc) aren't helping.

    Perhaps a ban on promotions would be a compromise ? That way we stop people vendors encouraging over consumption.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That is a valid point, it is of course a way of raising revenue, but I think alcohol demand isnt quite the same as tobacco, if people feel the pinch in terms of cost then they will cut down, something which isnt always the case the tobacco. But, as you rightly point out it does punish those who use alcohol in a relatively safe way, which is why I dont want the tax raised a lot, just another say 20p on a bottle of wine, and maybe another 7p on a pint.

    As for promotions and so on, definitely they should be stopped, there certainly should be no incentive for the customer to buy more.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    there certainly should be no incentive for the customer to buy more.

    because for many people the incentive can already exist within the product itself.
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