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Define White

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    It does have some biological basis though.

    White to me suggests someone from Europe or a direct descendant from European settlers/colonists/emmigrants.

    apart from going through their ancestry records, i dont do that to most people i know, there is actually not too much to race as in skin colour

    like you can get a closer genetic match between a 'english' person and an aborigine, than 2 'english' people

    most of racial stuff is a load of tosh, and any barely applicable generalisations in regards to physical shape etc can be discounted as there so many people and the fact everyone is different
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sorry, but this idea that race is just illusion, is stupid. Although, pbs seems to disagree.

    http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm

    I live in a region that has whites (english, germans, irish, french, italians, lithuanians, russians, romanians, swedish, finnish (they're especially cute), polish, hungarian, slovaks and mutts) blacks (light skinned, dark skinned, medium skinned), orientals (from various places), muslims, jews, indians (the kind from India), indians (the kind with red faces that used to shoot arrows at cowboys), spanish, indians from the yucatan, mixed races and Christians. Furthermore, I have worked closely with black americans and actually roomed with a black african.

    My experience tells me that there are profound differences between blacks from Africa and from the Northern United States. Moreover, there are striking differences between blacks from the North and the South of the United States. While many of these differences are cultural, so what? They are still very different from each other.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sorry, why are you talking about differences between black people? Given this thread is about white people, that would be a more appropriate example of differences wouldn't it?

    And to be honest the idea there is a difference between people from one part of the world and another is hardly revelatory. The whole point of this debate is surely whether those differences are cultural or not. That's not an irrelevant point.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote: »
    I'm sorry, why are you talking about differences between black people? Given this thread is about white people, that would be a more appropriate example of differences wouldn't it?

    And to be honest the idea there is a difference between people from one part of the world and another is hardly revelatory. The whole point of this debate is surely whether those differences are cultural or not. That's not an irrelevant point.

    It's relevant because the assertion was made several times that race is entirely irrelevant to one's identity, completely devoid of any meaning and quite frankly, nothing more than an idiotic and quaint illusion. (in other words: pish-posh) This is erroneous, for obviously even the slightest differences in cultural-ethno-racial-religious identity are plump with meaning and significance. Hence, my former post.

    Now, will everyone else have to explain their posts or do you just pick on the Americans?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Personally, I pick on the racists.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    Personally, I pick on the racists.

    That has become a meaningless term.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you Yahoo?

    "TORONTO - Doris Moore was shocked when her new couch was delivered to her home with a label that used a racial slur to describe the dark brown shade of the upholstery.

    The situation was even more alarming for Moore because it was her 7-year-old daughter who pointed out "n
    brown" on the tag...

    Moore, who is black, said Kingsoft's acknowledgment of a mistake doesn't make her feel better...

    Moore is consulting with a lawyer and wants compensation. Last week, she filed a report with the Ontario Human Rights Commission."

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_on_re_ca/canada_couch_racial_slur;_ylt=AvWmcKPRMnUCHwPic4InyfjMWM0F
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    apart from going through their ancestry records, i dont do that to most people i know, there is actually not too much to race as in skin colour

    like you can get a closer genetic match between a 'english' person and an aborigine, than 2 'english' people

    most of racial stuff is a load of tosh, and any barely applicable generalisations in regards to physical shape etc can be discounted as there so many people and the fact everyone is different

    You must have missed the link I posted :)

    Dr. Leroi says exactly that, but if you look for correlations then distinct racial groups appear. In paprticular, people of mixed race are interesting because they have bits of both.

    But looking at an individual gene, everyone can be as different as the next person.
    Three decades later, it seems that Dr. Lewontin's facts were correct, and have been abundantly confirmed by ever better techniques of detecting genetic variety. His reasoning, however, was wrong. His error was an elementary one, but such was the appeal of his argument that it was only a couple of years ago that a Cambridge University statistician, A. W. F. Edwards, put his finger on it.

    The error is easily illustrated. If one were asked to judge the ancestry of 100 New Yorkers, one could look at the color of their skin. That would do much to single out the Europeans, but little to distinguish the Senegalese from the Solomon Islanders. The same is true for any other feature of our bodies. The shapes of our eyes, noses and skulls; the color of our eyes and our hair; the heaviness, height and hairiness of our bodies are all, individually, poor guides to ancestry.

    But this is not true when the features are taken together. Certain skin colors tend to go with certain kinds of eyes, noses, skulls and bodies. When we glance at a stranger's face we use those associations to infer what continent, or even what country, he or his ancestors came from—and we usually get it right. To put it more abstractly, human physical variation is correlated; and correlations contain information.

    Genetic variants that aren't written on our faces, but that can be detected only in the genome, show similar correlations. It is these correlations that Dr. Lewontin seems to have ignored. In essence, he looked at one gene at a time and failed to see races. But if many—a few hundred—variable genes are considered simultaneously, then it is very easy to do so. Indeed, a 2002 study by scientists at the University of Southern California and Stanford showed that if a sample of people from around the world are sorted by computer into five groups on the basis of genetic similarity, the groups that emerge are native to Europe, East Asia, Africa, America and Australasia—more or less the major races of traditional anthropology.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    barkmoss wrote: »
    Moore is consulting with a lawyer and wants compensation.

    Without wishing to sidetrack the debate, what the fuck does she need compensation for ?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    RubberSkin wrote: »
    Without wishing to sidetrack the debate, what the fuck does she need compensation for ?

    Perhaps she wants to buy a new sofa with it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    She needs to pay for the therapy to get over it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Perhaps she wants to buy a new sofa with it?

    ShyBoy wrote: »
    She needs to pay for the therapy to get over it.

    :lol:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    barkmoss wrote: »
    That has become a meaningless term.
    Oh no it hasn't. Race, if anything, it's what's become meaningless.

    For as long as racism and racists are about (and sadly they are aplenty) the term racism is very meaningful indeed.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Oh no it hasn't. Race, if anything, it's what's become meaningless.

    For as long as racism and racists are about (and sadly they are aplenty) the term racism is very meaningful indeed.

    Well, anyone who thinks that race exists is by today's usage of the term a "racist." However, racist is also used to mean someone who is a criminal; someone who wants to exterminate all people who do not fit the term "white." Obviously, homicidal maniac and thinking that race actually exists is not the same thing. Unfortunately, that is the common usage. Hence, the term has been so abused and misused as to be utterly useless and entirely without any merit, whatsoever.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The common usage is the same as ever for racist as far as I'm aware - it is the use of persons race to stereotype them, and to discriminate against them.

    The idea that the term is 'useless' is very strange, especially, I would imagine, for the many millions who still experience racism.

    Thinking that race exsists is obviously not racist. Otherwise this entire debate wouldn't even be here.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    barkmoss wrote: »
    Now, will everyone else have to explain their posts or do you just pick on the Americans?

    Not at all, it's just there's been many bad experiences in the past with users that have joined and only engaged with debates on race. As a result it seems justified to clarify the position you're taking and the points you are making.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    barkmoss wrote: »
    That has become a meaningless term.

    In what way?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    barkmoss wrote: »
    "TORONTO - Doris Moore was shocked when her new couch was delivered to her home with a label that used a racial slur to describe the dark brown shade of the upholstery.

    The situation was even more alarming for Moore because it was her 7-year-old daughter who pointed out "n
    brown" on the tag...

    Moore, who is black, said Kingsoft's acknowledgment of a mistake doesn't make her feel better...

    Moore is consulting with a lawyer and wants compensation. Last week, she filed a report with the Ontario Human Rights Commission."

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_on_re_ca/canada_couch_racial_slur;_ylt=AvWmcKPRMnUCHwPic4InyfjMWM0F


    What's your point?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    barkmoss wrote: »
    Well, anyone who thinks that race exists is by today's usage of the term a "racist."

    What on earth are you on about? Has anyone been called racist on this thread?
    barkmoss wrote: »
    However, racist is also used to mean someone who is a criminal; someone who wants to exterminate all people who do not fit the term "white". Obviously, homicidal maniac and thinking that race actually exists is not the same thing. Unfortunately, that is the common usage. Hence, the term has been so abused and misused as to be utterly useless and entirely without any merit, whatsoever.

    What are you on about? :confused::confused:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim,

    I never said that race, gender or mass murder didn't exist.

    Obviously, I could not tell the difference between a light skinned and dark skinned black american if I refused to let my eyes "discriminate" or "compare and contrast" the difference in their skin color. But as I've already asserted, this isn't about trite little things like skin color, this is about mass extermination of colored people. This is about Jews in Nazi ovens, Black Americans hanging from Southern ropes, Homosexual Americans being wrapped in barbed wire and left to die, little old Indian ladies being forced to march until they died and battered women bleeding to death, in a lonely puddle of tears, in their very own bathroom, while her executioner husband cracks a beer and kicks back on his lazy boy to watch football. This is about the cold, calculated and callous Mass Murder of Innocent Human Beings, not the sport shooting of "sub-humans." I do not believe there is such a thing as a "sub-human."

    Of course, this begs the question: is it RATIONAL to be afraid of all these things? Remember the lady with the couch in the Yahoo article. She believes (I can't read her mind, but for all I know, she is sincere) that the "n word" constitutes such a real and bona-fide threat to her, her children and others (of her race or whatever label you want to give it) that she is entitled to a cash award and more importantly, that the people who committed this act need to be punished where it will hurt them the most, in their pocketbooks. Moreover, she believes that this really is a human rights issue that the government needs to protect her, her family and other members of "her group" from. (Some people don't believe that groups exist, but I think she does).

    Finally, I think it is irrational for you to be afraid of me, because my posts have generally been civil.

    Blagsta,

    You seem to be sincerely confused. I have sympathy for you, because I have felt confused at times myself and found that the condition elicited fear, shame and guilt. I hope you know how to "cope" with those feelings.

    Barkmoss
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You're the one that's confused pal.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote: »
    You're the one that's confused pal.

    I was momentarily frightened by the voracity of your response, felt ashamed, because you tricked me and felt guilty for "stepping in it." Fortunately, I know how to cope with those feelings. Furthermore, I don't envy the load of guilt and shame you heap upon yourself and the fear you generate in others of yourself. I like people to trust me.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Does anyone else struggle to follow barkmoss' thought process?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    barkmoss wrote: »
    Now, will everyone else have to explain their posts or do you just pick on the Americans?


    You're American? how the hell are we supposed to know?

    Apart from the huge chip on your shoulder, that is.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    barkmoss wrote: »
    That has become a meaningless term.

    Please explain this comment.

    Why has the term "racist" become meaningless?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Man of Kent,

    I feel badgered by your posts; is that how you want me to feel?

    Barkmoss
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    just a polite point barkmoss, this thread is about what the term 'white' means (which I have provided the definitive answer for ;)), and whilst you shouldn't feel badgered it is a persistant problem we have in debate forums of it getting sidetracked by meaningless points. As I was advised in another thread, sometimes it's better to ignore people if you think it's going away from the point of the thread.

    Though as I said, I'd already answered definitively the thread, saying Dr. Leroi at Imperial College London has expanded on the research of others showing that genetic correlations can be used to define different races, from 5 major groups (Europe, America, Africa, East Asia and Australasia) right down to different parts of the same country. heh :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    barkmoss wrote: »
    Man of Kent,

    I feel badgered by your posts; is that how you want me to feel?

    Barkmoss

    No, this is badgering.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    RubberSkin wrote: »
    No, this is badgering.

    I knew what that was gonna be before I clicked it lol
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I may be right only 51% of the time, but I'm always confident
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    just a polite point barkmoss, this thread is about what the term 'white' means (which I have provided the definitive answer for ;)), and whilst you shouldn't feel badgered it is a persistant problem we have in debate forums of it getting sidetracked by meaningless points. As I was advised in another thread, sometimes it's better to ignore people if you think it's going away from the point of the thread.

    Though as I said, I'd already answered definitively the thread, saying Dr. Leroi at Imperial College London has expanded on the research of others showing that genetic correlations can be used to define different races, from 5 major groups (Europe, America, Africa, East Asia and Australasia) right down to different parts of the same country. heh :p

    I compliment you on your civility; it is a virtuous and all to often rare quality. Kudos to you.

    While the Doctor may be correct, this information produces a great deal of fear and while that fear may be irrational, it is still very real. We should never forget that this kind of irrational fear can produce a tremendous amount of misery and evil.

    Incidentally, most of this is new to me; the idea that the woman in the Yahoo article was suffering from an irrational fear of white men/women/chinese people is a new conclusion for me. I'd always thought people like that were just "gold-diggers." So, while it may only be 51% on topic, it is still relevant. Of course, everyone will not appreciate that. Although, I'm sure you can.

    When little badgers grow up they become:

    http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/badgers2/
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