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Iran

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Seeker: what would you define as a legal kidnapping? Kidnapping is a crime, and thus inherintly illegal. That's like saying would you condone a legal murder.

    Someone who takes another hostage but claims "legal authority" to do so seems to cover the phrase for me.

    I`d define all declared wars as "legal murder" assuming of course, at least one person was murdered.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Well noone, apologies for my rhetoric. What I meant, was it was poor to take a different issue and imply this wasn't that bad in comparison. Yes we should condemn people being taken thousands of miles and detained indefinately without trial, but just because our government does that, we shouldn't let that overshadow how wrong this was, how inhumane. Whether they were treated well or badly, they were still prisoners, against their will, for something they did not do.

    The point is that propaganda demonises Iran - the west isn't so innocent either.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    seeker wrote: »
    Someone who takes another hostage but claims "legal authority" to do so seems to cover the phrase for me.

    I`d define all declared wars as "legal murder" assuming of course, at least one person was murdered.

    Well murder is a crime defined by a court of law. It would be 'legal killing'. Subtle difference really.

    Legal kidnapping, well, you could argue that being arrested for drink driving is legal kidnapping (being taken to a cell against your will). So yea, I'd say I don't mind 'legal kidnapping'. Although to be accurate, 'kidnapping' is a crime that is well defined by the UK courts (and I can dig it up if you want), and the actual action is just taking someone into custody / as a prisoner. If the police do it and have a standard of care they must provide, and only detain them for a reasonable period, and have detained them for a good reason, that's ok. They're all safeguards to protect our rights.

    Obviously, guantanamo is different, and human rights I think are just an obstacle to the people running it. Was it bush who said the geneva convention was outdated? It's a slippery slope backwards...

    Blagsta: I see your point. China carries out more executions than any other coutnry in the world, America still executes under 18s I think, Iran has it's extreme side but also it's moderate side. However, I think because this has been an incident caused by Iran, then it's natural to say how Iran are doing things wrong, rather than look at ourselves.

    I only hope the democrats get in in the next election. I think much of what happens in the world will depend on the politcal motivations and leanings of the US.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Well murder is a crime defined by a court of law. It would be 'legal killing'. Subtle difference really.

    Subtle in that a bunch of old guys with dead sheep on their heads give you a nod and a wink, and you too can be the Terminator.
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Legal kidnapping, well, you could argue that being arrested for drink driving is legal kidnapping (being taken to a cell against your will). So yea, I'd say I don't mind 'legal kidnapping'.

    What about failing to stop when ordered to by a "legal authority" ?

    Would you mind a bit of legal kidnapping then ?

    You seem to be of the opinion that certain actions are justified if they are deemed legal.
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Although to be accurate, 'kidnapping' is a crime that is well defined by the UK courts (and I can dig it up if you want), and the actual action is just taking someone into custody / as a prisoner.

    If I remember correctly, "legal excuse" are the magic words that justify the action of taking someone prisoner.
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    If the police do it and have a standard of care they must provide, and only detain them for a reasonable period, and have detained them for a good reason, that's ok. They're all safeguards to protect our rights.

    Obviously, guantanamo is different, and human rights I think are just an obstacle to the people running it. Was it bush who said the geneva convention was outdated? It's a slippery slope backwards...

    Blagsta: I see your point. China carries out more executions than any other coutnry in the world, America still executes under 18s I think, Iran has it's extreme side but also it's moderate side. However, I think because this has been an incident caused by Iran, then it's natural to say how Iran are doing things wrong, rather than look at ourselves.

    As I`m With Stupid pointed out earlier, it was "legal" as far as the Iranians were concerned.

    If they had put on wigs and big red cloaks would you say they were "right" ?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Seriously seeker, I'm not going to get into an argument about whether any law is valid. It is obvious without doubt that this is a PR stunt, the Iranians did not really believe we were in their territory, as there is numerous evidence showing otherwise.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    However, I think because this has been an incident caused by Iran, then it's natural to say how Iran are doing things wrong, rather than look at ourselves.

    I'm not so sure whether it was "caused" by Iran. I have my suspicions that the RN weren't entirely innocent.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Seriously seeker, I'm not going to get into an argument about whether any law is valid. It is obvious without doubt that this is a PR stunt, the Iranians did not really believe we were in their territory, as there is numerous evidence showing otherwise.

    Is there?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta - well the GPS coordinates given by the RN for one thing. Either way, if an Iranian boat had gone over the boundary, do you think that we would have siezed the ships and crew (and bear in mind Iran still have our boats and it doesn't look like we're going to get them back), and made the biggest PR stunt out of it ever, parading them on television 'apologising to the people of the people of Iraq for trespassing on their waters'.

    Call me cynical, but I think this had been planned in advance.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You've seen the GPS machine yourself have you?

    AFAIK, the boundary is disputed and not clearly defined.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, but personally, I'd trust the RN over the Iranian authorities. That's just my opinion tho. And since the boundary is disputed, surely there should be MORE leniancy, not less.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Blagsta wrote: »
    You've seen the GPS machine yourself have you?

    AFAIK, the boundary is disputed and not clearly defined.

    It is disputed. It was fought over.

    TBH, they are home, pretty much unscathed, so it's all good.

    We'd do the same if the French invaded our waters.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote: »
    We'd do the same if the French invaded our waters.

    Bollocks. Maybe 100+ years ago before the Entente Cordiale.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    That's just my opinion tho. And since the boundary is disputed, surely there should be MORE leniancy, not less.

    No, since it's disputed, forces like the RN should err on the side of caution and stay the fuck away from it. They should've known not to push their luck around such an area.

    Anyhoo, no one got hurt, there was a lot of propaganda on both sides and the soldiers are back home safe and sound. End of story.
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